Gunship does NOT benefit from railroad, why?

[KrikkitTwo]

Well I'd agree withe the Amphibious bonus, and some way for them to benefit from Your Rails. But Otherwise I'd say leave them as is. (moving over water squares sounds good, until you consider how large those water tiles are supposed to be)

 

[GinandTonic]

If Gunships had the amphibious bonus then transports loaded with Gunships and Marines would represent Pocket Carriers/ Through Deck Cruisers in a commando group configeration. Havnt had the oppertunity to test it but I was under the impression that Gunships didnt loose its other three moves when unloading, in which case simply unload in the square next to the city to attack.

Naval war does need to be adressed to avoid the coin-flip it is at the mo. Perhaps subs 100% v bs and carrier, destroyers 100% v subs.

Gunships should be able to fly over sea to end their turn on land, but this could overpower their ability to use the (v cheap) Transport. Question of gameplay ballance I guess.

EDIT - Doh, The point about naval combat was that subs should have an anti-sub role. Say 50% subs.

 

[drfish]

After reading though this thread I have to try and sumarize for my own thoughts...

Do:
- give gunships amphibious by default
- let the use railroads
- let them "fly" over coastal tiles
- let them cross oceans within cultural borders

Don't:
- modify their 4 tile movement rate
- modify their base strength
- give them rebase

Maybe:
- give them 25-50% vs Mech Inf

That would make them perfect IMO... If this doesn't get patched in who's up for a chopper MOD?

 

[Xenocrates]

While packed up on the train, I s'pose you'd prevent it from attacking/defending and want a turn lost to loading?

I like them the way they are, you have to think ahead and put them where you believe you will need them. No need to change IMO, and if they had a sea capability we'd all build dozens of them instead of ships. They are good enough to build but not too good atm, I don't need them changed.

 

[rube203]

When first thinking about this issue I was of the agreement that we should simply do a few things:
1) Free Amph Upgrade (let's face it, heli's can attack from water)
2) Use of rails, but not roads
3) Ability to be transported by Carriers

and that would be enough, however, in thinking about how heli's are actually used, I think an increase in movement is also warrented, they are often used to transport units well behind enemy lines. So more than a 4 movement should be included, perhaps as high as ten. Then I remember all the reports of them being shot down, so I think, hey, if you move over or next to an enemy unit, allow them the chance to attack. After all this I think it would make sense, but wait, I remember that this is called a gunship. And this description sounds closer to a transport heli, sooo, I'll stick with recommending the first three suggestions, and maybe give me a new unit... there should be more units in the game anyways.

On the note of flying over water, I'd say to give it to them, but in reality they need to land at the end of their turn, on land or transport/carrier. So other than moving them to a ship, with a current movement of four, I can move out two units and move back two, doesn't really help to be able to fly over water, so I don't care about that feature, but one things for sure, they are definately underpowered as is

 

[karadoc]

Do:
- give gunships amphibious by default
- let the use railroads
- let them "fly" over coastal tiles
- let them cross oceans within cultural borders

Don't:
- modify their 4 tile movement rate
- modify their base strength
- give them rebase

Maybe:
- give them 25-50% vs Mech Inf

Agreed. Expect that I wouldn't let them fly over oceans (only coastal), and I wouldn't give them a bonus vs mechs.

 

[Dadamh]

The silliest thing about gunships to me is that they can be loaded into Galleons.

 

[drfish]

I'd also be happy if they added a hovercraft unit of some kind instead of moding the gunship's stats... I remember adding a hovercraft unit to Civ2 by giving it the same settings as the chopper... Worked pretty good but there was some problem with it that I can't put my finger on right now...

As far as ocean squares go I guess I have to agree, from a balance perspective it really can't be allowed and a lot of times coastal squares link up islands pretty well anyway...

Why no bonus against mechs though?

 

[Agraza]

I'd like them to bring back the ability that units had to end their turn in a safe form of terrain or face consequences. For example, in civ3 your galley could enter sea and ocean squares, but if it ended its turn in either it had a % chance to sink, whereas if it ended its turn in coastal squares it was safe.

This would let gunships cross any form of water body as long as they could end up on land when they're done, or for that matter, move from ship to ship. They would fly onto a ship in the water, end turn, fly to another, end turn, fly to another. Helicopters can certainly accomplish this in real life as long as each destination has a flat landing space for them.

 

[Viperace]

I have started a gunship development thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146270

Those with some modding experience head over there already.. I think we have agree on how gunship should be fix, its time for some real work!

 

[Clown2TheLeft]

Here's my two cents:

At-home transport of the gunship does seem rather odd. While it excells in enemy territory, it's about useless in your own empire. Rather than give it rail and/or road benefits--which, I agree, is more in-tune with real-life--I'd give it rebase. That's me, though.

If it was given rail/road at home, fine, I'd deal with it, but I'd suggest that if it gets rail, it should not get rebase--and vice/versa. One or the other--not both. That's what I'm getting at.

That it cannot cross coast and lakes is just silly. This HAS to be an oversight on the programmers part--my eternal optimist (HA!) says that they COULD NOT have intended an aircraft to be thwarted by water. I like the "must end turn on land" option that's been mentioned. I think that'd be a good fix.

I think it's rather odd that melee units can harm the gunship in any way. I mean, c'mon... this takes the spearman/tank discussions of Civ III to another level. Yes, I know: "It's just a game..." And that's just an axe, and that's just a 20mm Vulcan Gun.

I don't agree with the dismissals of the gunship as a useless unit. My only complaint with them is by the time they come to play, I'm crashing to desktop every other turn.

I use them to scount enemy territory as I pillage, and pick off the units being shuffled around to counter my main force. Aside from the steady cash flow from violating all those towns and villages the AI insists upon building, I wipe out the enemy roads, too--saving only those that I need to help support my advance. The gunship's movement rate in-country permits you to engage the enemy on YOUR terms, which is always a good thing.

And 17 is the magic number: permits blitz. On a four-movement unit. Useless? Meh.


Later!

--The Clown to the Left

 

[Thalassicus]

There's a reason for both the Amphibious penalty and rail movement: their withdraw chance! With 55% odds to survive any defeat (flanking I and II) you could conceivably load up several transports with dozens of gunships and attack a coastal city without any way for them to respond, and even when you lose a fight, you pull out half the time. Likewise, if gunships could move 40 squares over railroads in your empire, just imagine the withdraw abuse! The enemy attacks your territory, and are immediately swarmed by 30 gunships with crazy withdraw rates, that can instantly move back to base.

I think they're fine as is. The purpose of them is not empire defense, but forward assault ahead of your front line in enemy territory. 4 moves is double all other units in opposing terrain, allowing you to reach target 4 tiles deep and attack right when you declare war, before the enemy can react. They also suffer no turn loss when unloading from transports, allowing you to go crazy with pillaging before the opponent can even fight back.

Plus they're the counter for tanks, with even odds against modern armor and a 55% withdraw chance, tanks alone don't stand a chance. This encourages combined arms (bringing along infantry/mech infantry), which I like. No longer is the best strategy to build 30 of one unit type and attack the enemy


The one thing I would like to see is an Apache UU for the Americans, with 5 movement points, First Strike, and March. This would be a great representation of US air power, and both more useful and realistic than Seals. Just need a 3D model for it

 

[Viperace]

Thalassicus ,

FYI, they no longer receive amphibous penalty after the first patch. The patch fix that.

As for the withdrawal rate, it only work if u attack. It never work on defending, IIRC.

So, go figure

 

[player1 fanatic]

Give a gunship 12 movement points (flies faster than a train), but make movement in enemy territory cost 3 movementpoints each (because in enemy territory gunships normally fly very low to avoid being seen and therefore at a much lower speed). So you can move a gunship pretty fast in your empire, but at the same speed as now in enemy territory.

Good idea.
Not sure it could be done by just modifing XML, or we'll need to wait for SDK or some patch.

 

[ajcardall]

Are Gunships not able to be housed on aircraft carriers at all, then?

They should have the same sea movement as a Trieme/Ironclad where they have to stick to the ocean/costal squares and can't fly out over deep sea.

 

[Half Fast]

I like the idea of having to end turn on either land or a ship. I don't like the idea of any unit be able to move 40 squares over your own empire. It would actually be better just to have the ability to airlift, and you just have to keep them in the areas where you might need them.
Thalassicus, if someone wants to load gunships on transports and send em over with the risk of being lost when they meet a battleship, thats fine. Its done in real life with assault carriers. Just like in real life, you would need to guard your transports with other ships besides transports, making it harder to send a huge fleet gunships. Any reason for not attacking solely with gunships would still apply, because they could be defeated with SAM infantry.

 

[Thalassicus]

FYI, they no longer receive amphibous penalty after the first patch. The patch fix that.

Are you sure? I just tried it again ingame (with the patch):

If you move them on to land first though, it doesn't apply:

Since they have 4 movement points, you can land, attack, and move back to sea without endangering them, you just can't attack directly from sea. Think about the amphibious penalty like in real life: a dozen attack helicopters on open water are easy targets, with no cover to hide from radar or missile attacks.

As for the withdrawal rate, it only work if u attack. It never work on defending, IIRC.

That's the thing…if Gunships could use rails/roads in home territory, they never would have to defend, you could attack and move right back to base. Right now if you attack with a gunship and they withdraw, they're vulnerable, out in the open. Otherwise you could just swarm an assault force with gunships, which is the purpose of artillery or barrage tanks.

Half Fast: You can airlift them with an airport like other ground units, they just can't be rebased like air units. Rebasing without limitations might have some significant gameplay impact though...

 

[Viperace]

Are you sure? I just tried it again ingame (with the patch):

Oh thanks, u confirm one thing for me.

Amphibous assault:
1) No penalty for attacking across river
2) No penalty for attacking directly from transport

The patch only fix 1) for gunship, I am sure of that. And u have shown the 2nd. So it is a partial fix

Still, i m going to let them use railroad and road.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Well only no1 was ridiculus anyway.

 

[gilfan]

Wherever you build the chopper, its pretty much stuck on that continent, which is pretty unrealistic considering the various methods of transportation.

you can transport gunships on boats