Halp! - Immortal - Fractal

[Quibblesome]

So in my continued quest to master Immortal I've gone ahead and played a relatively iffy start (corn/cows/clams, no river) but I'm a little stumped as to how to continue. I recently tried a elephant/cat war in a previous game but got _horribly_ bogged down and was scared of the AI's tech lead so I'm hoping to avoid that today. Therefore I thought I'd ask everyone for their opinions.
I've attached saves and you'll need the latest BUFFY to play.

You can shadow blind if you want (I've attached the first save as well as the current one), or read all the lovely spoilers and just offer kind words.

Spoiler :

I am good old Sury and here is my lovely empire:

Spoiler :

The numbers indicate the order I settled the spots if people want to give feedback on that. I know the 3rd I settled sucked but I wanted a phant and to stop Raggy from getting too close. The burnt out spot is a barb village that couldn't handle my border pressure but I released it because at that time I was long way off calender and hadn't got alpha yet.

I've only just built lots of lovely workers to clear the forests, I was a little light on workers but in my defense I didn't really have many good plots to work at first (although I could have done with a couple more earlier on I think).

As you can see my diplo position is horrendously awkward which is what's causing me pause. I am on an island with Raggers who somehow managed to found Hinduism which spread to me very early (and I adopted).
Everyone else is Buddhist and situated on a chain of islands to the east which I haven't explored that much.

Spoiler :

I think Darius (the leader of the Buddhist faithful) is beyond Gilgs either on the same island or another separate one. I'm guessing this because I met him very late.

So as a bit of an outcast I'm not sure how to proceed. I could try to join forces with Raggy and kill off Augustus as he has a few nice wonders (Wall, Oracle, Artemis, Colossus) but I worry that Raggy wont really do much as it would be an aquatic war. Also Raggy is a bit of a untrustworthy soul so the other option is to attack him. However he has every resource under the sun (well.... copper, iron and phants at least) and we all know how much he likes his units. He also has the Mids, which is very tempting. The only plus is his tech:

Spoiler :

Which is terrible as I'm the only one that's ever traded with him. I'm at peace with Augustus because he demanded HBR a turn or two ago.
I've only just really finished my big trades after securing HBR and Aesthetics (thanks for the tip Seraiel!).

So considering the tech gap I guess I could:

Sack the last two development spots, aim construction and gogogogogogogogogogogo rush, whip the crap out of almost everything (except my two river cities).

or

Attempt to just sit back, settle the last two spots, get Maoi in the gold city and aim for trebs/maces or something even later, then kill Raggs (which the others will obviously love me for). However I'm worried that Raggs with DoW on me before I get there. He's almost finished expanding so he'll probably start getting twitchy in a bit.
I'm honestly curious about what he would do if he DoWed on someone else though. Would he really get enough boats to get there giving me a counter attacking opportunity? Or would he just wander around the island a bit lost while losing zero units?

I'm about to start teching calender so I can do something with that trash river city and I was considering (if sitting back) building Maoi and shifting my capital to that river spot below the cap in time for Civil Service. Once that's all ready I'd whip everything else to the ground and kill Raggy.

My happies have just kicked in a little:

Spoiler :

and if I get calendar I can push that all the more with the great bounty of resources within my borders:

Spoiler :

So sitting back a little seems really attractive if it wasn't for that crazy Danish axe-wielding menace below me. What's the best way to stifle him without stifling myself because that Buddhist love fest is going to result in a snowballing tech machine that's hard to keep up with.

HALP!

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, this for once definately is a really good post, that makes giving advice really easy.

As you noticed yourself, Diplomacy is your biggest issue atm.. It's really good, that you gave into Augustus demand, because he has a really high chance to go to war when denying him. Things that should make you careful, are, that you have shared borders with Augustus and Ragnar. This greatly increases the chances of them dowing you. The thing that's atm. protecting you is, that you expanded mostly horizontal (and that really well! ) , so your cities are widely spread and very small. You also have a lot of cities compared to the AIs, but one thing that's definately wrong, is you thinking about going for early war in this scenario. Augustus probably has Praets (don't know) , but he has Catapults at least. If this is wrong, and if he only has Archers, you can conquer him with 5 Elephants + 3 Catapults, that'd be ok, but if he only has the possibility to get Iron somehow, you'd wreck your whole empire if going to war with him.

The chance of bribing Ragnar against him, is really good, as it takes the immediate danger from both of you, allowing you to grow and develop your cities, something that's really important. It'll also slow down their tech-rates by 20%, which is advisable, as Augustus already has a tech-lead. If I were you, I'd focus on getting really many Workers (like 1.5-1.8 for every city) , and fast-tech towards Steel, as Cuirrassiers are no real option, considering that Ragnar will have Elephants. You can go for Cav + Airship wars, but then you have to go for Domination / Conquest, as they are very hammer-intensive. Draft-Muskets + Cannons will allow you to keep cities larger and they also come earlier, allowing you an easy Spacerace Victory.

If you decide for that one, go the Mining + Sushi route and capture about 16 cities, elsesome, focus on tech. Darius is a Gold-builder, and he's really easy to get to friendly, so converting to Buddhism (after having bribed Ragnar against Agustus is advisable) . Run Pacifism + Caste once you got them, like this, only your GP Farm really needs Buddhism. Spread your own Religion and get yourself a Shrine (after founding an Academy, create the GPs simultaniously in 2 cities bestly) , and spread your Religion towards the other AIs. Direct espionage towards them, switch one of them to a different religion, bribe, GG. :>

If you prefer a different route, like i. e. Domination / Conquest / Whatever, just say so, you're in a position where you can chose your victory and I have experience on all. If you have questions, just ask. Regarding the one's you had:

Researching Calendar usually is not advisable, as that's a tech that usually can easily be gotten from AI. Getting Currency asap probably will be best, while getting CoL from Darius will open up Civil Service as a followup, making you really strong, economical-wise.

 

[Quibblesome]

Well I played until 375 AD and it's weird.....

Spoiler :

So the problem is this:

Spoiler :

I even got him to friendly with another decent tech available and he still wouldn't declare on either of the two possibles (Darius/Augustus). Augustus demanded I stop trading just before this and I refused because I was sure I'd get Raggy to DoW so I got a -2 for that which terrified me.

So with Augustus on my doorstep and our peace treaty expired I waited a few more turns to increase my bid but eventually decided to switch to Buddhism after Raggy remained peaceful. I check in with Ragnar every turn to see if he'll DoW on Darius (he wont DoW Augustus anymore) as he still offers it but he's never interested. No red fist either. :S
I traded construction from him just before I switched and have done all sorts of reasonably dangerous trades (with worst enemies) over the course of the game and only have only suffered a -1 from Darius for "trading with our worst enemy" so I'm quite pleased about that.

This appears to be why Raggy wouldn't play ball:

Spoiler :

His land is massive!

So I've been trading away and keeping a decent-ish tech pace:

Spoiler :

Feudalism cost me Calendar, Drama and Compass from Augustus, I wanted to trade with Gilgs but he had just teched Calendar (I went there before currency and I think it was a good choice because now my 2 river cities can grow) ruining the trade so I swapped him Monotheism (obtained from one of my risky trades) and gold for Currency.

Maoi is now finished the capital moved. Darius doesn't want to trade away CoL "yet" (and its been AGES) so I'm considering self-researching it as I want caste.

Here is the empire:

Spoiler :

Gilgs is on relatively good terms with Rags but the others aren't. So I'm thinking of closing my borders with Rags to keep things sweet. I now have Feudalism and the bottom left two cities are on hills (and I think they're the ones he'll attack) so I think I'll be okay with just some longbows and cats. I have some ballista elephants too!

So I'm building some units and hoping to learn towards longbows and cats as they both upgrade to rifles and cannons. However, given the size of Raggies territory should I consider elephants => cuirs?

I've 2 GP farms that I'm whipping the extra pop into units/missionaries atm till I can farm there. One will work merchants and the other scientists once I get caste, so I can mass upgrade. ATM they are working a combination of scientists and the odd priest (I'm hoping to get one of each so I can pick up Theo for trade with the Buddhists and be first to Philo).

So my next steps are to switch to Theo, Caste, Buero, keep making Longbows/Elephants and Cats. Market the cap and maybe the other river city. Not sure what to make in the GP farms aside from the NE (but I have no marble ). Which city do you think is the best GP farm? The old cap or the one in the bottom right? The one on Augustus's territory is production for strategic reasons. The ones on the left should just work water and specialists and whip when I have the right tech. I'm also making a spy for when I close borders with Rags to keep tabs on him and maybe spend a bit of EP on culture or something (to be honest, building him was a bit of a whim).

Do you think there is any chance Augustus will DoW me now? We're @ pleased, he's now forgotten all about that trading nonsense with Raggy and he's always struck me as a reputable fellow.

Thoughts?

p.s. My game did just crash and the last auto is 325 AD, so I'll have to continue from back there D:.

 

[Seraiel]

1. You can set the autosave-interval to 1 in the civilization.ini (very useful and required if you ever want to play for HoF) .

2. You haven't read what I wrote, or don't believe it, you should! Don't go for Cuirrassiers, if Raggy has Elephants, it's a waste! His territory is huge, he'll have tons of units because he is THE unit-builder in the game, trust Muskets and Cannons! With Cannons, you can smash him to pieces, and all you then need, is a unit with a STR of 8 or higher, that can do the cleanup job! Just see, that he doesn't dow you, this is the only thing what could make you lose that round, keep him busy, and focus on research!
Also: Researching Calendar, is never (!) a good idea, on the higher difficulties, as AI always (!) researches it really fast! Plz trust me, I really have huge experience, regarding the teching-priorities of each Civilization under the current circumstances! Always, Currency, always! Then, CoL (can normally be gotten through trade) , then Civil Service!

3. Plz upload a save, and I'll look at it, once I find the time.

Seraiel

P.S.: I somehow missed, that you already have a shrine. If you don't, ignore Theology for the moment. You already have a holy city, and it's a long way towards Steel. War before that, is simply not advisable, at least not against Ragnar!

 

[Quibblesome]

I don't have a founding city. Taoism is my only hope for that and I get the GS in 8 turns. I'm working a priest in one of my GP farms to increase GPP rate (and because there are no tiles to work unless I start building non-riverside cottages) not because I want a priest. Theology trade is just in case I roll one, Raggy already has Theo so I wont found Christianity if I get it. The pure scientist is due first though so Taoism could be on the cards.

Weirdly enough I had a monopoly on Calendar for ages and when I was half way there Gilgs had Currency so I guess it was just blind luck.
My tech order has suffered immensely due to my inability to occupy Raggy and the fear it brings. When I gave up on Hinduism I targeted getting a trade of Feudalism to stand a chance vs Raggy which led to me to tech Drama and Compass as trade bait.

I'm currently expecting Raggs to DoW me before he accepts a bribe to fight elsewhere or at least switch into WHEOOHRN (target:me). Why wont he accept the bribe??? Is it because he hasn't finished expanding yet? Could there be other reasons?

Here's the 325 AD save.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok. First of all, your cities are looking really good. Here are some minor things, that have to be changed though:

• Yasodharapura has to work the lighthouse lake, that tile is far superior to the Forrest that it's working atm. ^^
• Rajavihara has to be whipped down. All that pop working Forrests again, is not only inefficient, it costs you gold. Learn: Working Forrests is an extreme exception! It may be right in the very beginning of a round, or when trying to build the National Epic in your super food-rich but low-production GP-Farm, but even there, one could already argue about why not whipping the National Epic (even with malus) .
• Don't work coastal tiles, unless you're Financial, or only, if you want to let cities grow to whip them down later, once you've reached a certain key-tech.
• You didn't direct your Espionage. Because of this, you cannot see, what your chosen target researches. You should direct it to Darius now, read the follow-up for reasons.

Regarding Diplomacy:

• You don't have +4 bonus through fair-trades. You should, possibly as early as possible and always again (I wouldn't trade a monopoly for that though) . I see, that you don't have any opportunities to get that one atm. , because Darius is the Worst Enemy of Ragnar, but I don't know, if you would have had that opportunity earlier. You'd already be 1 point close to him being friendly, if you wouldn't have traded with Ragnar, and if you had the full +4. That point (or even those 2 points, if you had no other chance but to trade with Ragnar) , you could have easily gotten by trading Darius some resources (not only the superflous Clams, Bananas and Spices, but every resource you don't need for your own cities) . Learn: Trading a resource for 20 turns, gives +1. Trading 2 Resources for 20 turns, gives +2. Trading 4 Resources, gives +2 in 10 turns, a.s.o.
  You have lots of resources, trade away everything, that you don't need yourself, and use it, to get either GPT, or simply for diplomatic reasons. I'd probably trade Darius your superflous resources, + the stone (as that one is at least atm. superflous) , giving you the +2 in 10 turns, exactly the time, when you can cancel all resources but one again.

Regarding your path of Research:

• You chose to tech Compass. Though I don't agree on that choice fully, but accept that it's good tradegood, this opens up the possibility, to do something totally different, to the usual CS -> Education route. As you are this far already, it makes a lot of sense, to continue with Optics, build a Caraval (preferably upgrade a Trireme, but you're low on Gold) , load it with a Scout, and send it on tour to discover the 2 missing Civs (they probably will be really backwards, so you can sell them all your basic techs, maybe they won't even have Alpha yet -.- ^^) , and very unfortunately, you disabled Goody Huts, because if they were on, you could find Astronomy in one of them.
  Astronomy itself, also seems like a viable Research option, once after you bulbed Philosphy. If you decide for this, then of course don't trade the retards your valuable techs, but simply destroy them because they're so backwards.

General things:

• There are 2 units in your capital, while there is none in the northern wheat-city.
• Yasodharapura is an excellent GP-Farm, build the National Epic there. It would also have been an extraordinary site for MOAI + HE, but you already built MOAI, and you don't have a lvl 4 unit afaik.
• The Baray in Angkor Wat, is not needed.
• You're not tradnig the Gems from Giggles. The 3 Grains, and the Bling, is always worth trading for, as they give double bonuses with buildings, you'll most always build (Granaries, Forges) .

Now the good thing. This, is really everything, I found in your game, that's suboptimal. I'll post my advice, or my thoughts in the next post.

S.

 

[Seraiel]

Now here is some advice, and my thoughts on how to proceed:

• I think, as you got a really well developed Commercial City having an Academy (Angkor Thom) , and as you already moved your Capital here, go for Civil Service. Ignore Astronomy, as you already have intercontinental traderoutes.
• Get Darius to friendly, asap, so you're able to trade CoL from him. Gift him either HBR (now) , or any tech of your choice once you have the +2 from delivering resources to him.
• Trade for Feudalism, as you already did before your game crashed, and switch to Vassalage, once you've bulbed Philosphy, just to save some money on units (your deficit actually is really large) .
• Don't build Courthouses yet, and don't build more units yet, but watch Ragnar really close. Stay in Slavery, and be prepared to emergency whip Elephants + Longbows in all of your cities. Ragnar won't attack yet, because he still has land he can expand to, and because he's probably on Missionary Tactic, due to him having 2 holy cities (you can see that, from his religion being really well spread, and if you sent more units throughout his territory, you'd probably soon find a Missionary running towards one of his cities) .
  Your fear, that this might change soon, is right, as he has little land to expand to, and because the spread of his religion is almost complete. He has a huge empire, for which he probably is paying huge upkeep, and his cities are developed really badly, which will make him seek money at some point in the game (of course through Conquest, wouldn't be Ragnar elsesome, not? ;D )
• Build Roads towrads Angkor Wat, the southern Stone city, and don't fear the attack of him. It's very likely, that if he attacks, that it'll be in Angkor Wat, because it's the largest city, and there is some border-pressure. That city has got 40% cultural defense, giving a Longbow a STR of 10 without promotions, so even if he attacks with Catapults, he won't stand any chance if you only have half of the attackers in form of the 2 units I mentioned.
• Gift Calendar to Augustus, for diplomatic bonuses. You should already know, from the guide which we've written, that he cannot plot war against you at pleased. Also, don't misjudge, that if he's saying "we demand bla bla bla from you" , that he actually begs for it. In addition: There are good chances, that Augustus will build the MoM for you, making him a really juicy target later on.
• Don't give up, if your Philosphy bulb should fail. Normally, without being PHI, there's no chance to first build an Academy, and then still be first to Philosphy, but this is Immortal, and there are only few AIs on the map, so you might still have some chance.
  Ragnar has 2 holy cities, and he already has a shrine. Conquering him with Maces / Muskets + Cannons will probably be really easy, giving you a really good city to build Wallstreet and the Corps HQs in.
• There is an unkown AI having the GLH and an unknown AI having the Temple of Salamon. It could actually be, that both are owned by the same AI, so one of the AIs you'll meet after Optics may not be ******** ^^ .
• You shouldn't go for an offensive war yet. Ragnar is way to strong for you to conquer him with number, and Augustus might also be a tough nut to crack. Your main goal really should be that you focus your Research on CS, probably followed up by Education and probably Liberalism Economics, to faster reach Steel and to get the free GM for Sushi.

My idea, that this game is destined to be a Spacerace, is backed up by the spread of Religion in that game. Ragnar is isolated, so he'll be underdeveloped for until you kill him. The others are all Buddhists, so you can get them all to friendly, giving you perfect trade-opportunities. If Augustus builds the MoM, conquer him, but if anybody else builds it, just forget about it, conquer your Continent, found the 2 Corps, and win by having far more land, researching the right things, and because you'll have superior Production + Research + Commerce having Mining, Sushi and a Shrine.
Anyhow, if you prefer to go the domination route, just continue on building units, instead of Wealth, Missionaries, Failgold, whatever. It's just, that I'm usually against intercontinental invasions and especially against warfare with (friendly) AIs, that are willing to trade everything to you.

If you have questions, just ask.

Seraiel