Hanging Gardens... why?

[blitzkrieg1980]

I've been watching many deity playthroughs with the old forum champs like AbsoluteZero and TMIT. I've seen quite a few games where they mention The Hanging Gardens as highly desirable. To reference a vid I'm watching right now, in AbsZero's Lincoln deity playthrough 38, he mentions how he'd really like to get it and in fact built it himself.

My question is: Why? +1 is nice but by no means a reason to build a 300 wonder. +1 population sounds cool (free food) but it's kinda like a one time bonus and if you whip, you've just whipped away 300. Getting a GE could be great, but he's said a couple times in this video that he needs Great Scientists. Am I missing something here? Why would such skilled deity players favor this wonder?

 

[Seraiel]

I like the HGs. With Stone and 5-6 cities, one gets more Hammers through the +1 population then the HGs cost themselves. HGs are also very nice in Corporation-games, where cities grow large and where one has to generate a GE for Mining Inc.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I assume one wouldn't whip away that free population, right? I mean, that 1 population only provides 30 so you'd need 10 cities whipping to make up for the cost of the wonder. If that extra citizen is left to work production tiles, I guess it makes sense. I must be missing something because that early in the game, aren't your hammers usually better used on other things?

The GE makes perfect sense (I've built HG alongside the 'Mids for this). But in the scenarios I've watched in playthroughs, they weren't going for a GE

 

[lymond]

Keep in mind that HG is a lot cheaper than that with stone and even more with IND trait, and you are usually never going to consider building it without one or the other or both. Free pop is very much worth it whether you whip it away, boost your cities, or run more specialists. Granted, as Serial says, you want at least 5 or 6 cities...more the better

It can also be built quite quickly in the right city with 2 or 3 chops if you plan for it.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yeah, I was thinking about it after I responded to Seraiel. It actually makes a lot of sense. That free population lasts for the whole game. If I was at size 6 and now I'm 7 and I whip away 3 citizens, I now have 4 instead of the 3 I would've had. Having that in 6 cities is pretty powerful. Also, AbsoluteZero had stone in the game I was watching so it's really 150 input hammers and not 300.

I get it now. Unfortunately, I don't usually go for Maths early enough to seal in getting THG but I'll start considering it as an option in stone-having games . Thanks again for the tips.

 

[bhavv]

Its a must have wonder when I'm playing sury. +1 food from UB, +1 health from HG, and the free population gets put into specialists.

 

[dutchfire]

It is also a wonder that you have some realistic chance of getting, since you'll often have mathematics anyway. Moreso than some of the more cultural wonders at least. At this point of the game, I am also often more commerce constrained than hammer constrained, so even losing it for failgold is not bad (and I might not yet have currency).

 

[reddishrecue]

More population and health make it easier to make more science which gives better troops and education. The great engineer point per turn gives you the opportunity to make more wonders in the future.

 

[pandamancer]

Wait what?!

The HG costs 300 . It is true that with Ind and stone you get 150% bonus. But you will be needing an aqueduct that costs another 100 . In short it really costs 220 (100 from aqueduct + 120 modified hammers in building HG)

But don't you think that it would be better if we go for the pyramids with that kind of setup? It just costs 200 (modified hammers). What's more it gives +3 per specialist and more happiness (assuming you are in representation) per turn rather than one time ~180 (6 cities of size 5 to pop 6 = 6 x 30 )

I don't know... I don't think it is easy to pull off both wonders on higher difficulties.

 

[Zacar]

HR offers infinite happiness, but pretty much nothing offers you infinite health.

HG pop bonus spreads over your cities, so if an opponent builds it, you won't gain the full benefit again by conquest of the specific city.

It is true that the aqueduct is a significant cost, but well, at least you got an aqueduct.

Math is an excellent combination for chopping this particular wonder.

The health bonus never obsoletes.

That being said, if opponents get enough difficulty bonuses, then obviously the game is very asymmetric and you might just want to focus on military instead.

 

[Windsor]

Pyramids is a much stronger wonder but also comes a lot earlier. This makes the 'mids compete more directly with the crucial first expansion phase.

When it comes to comparing cost, don't just look at raw numbers. The pyramids locks up a much larger percentage of your empires total production capacity and workforce.

In total, the mids is just a much bigger investment.

 

[sinimusta]

It needs quite favourable circumstances, at least on higher levels. You need to be able to expand so fast that HG is hammer positive, but still tech fast enough to be able to get the wonder. Stone/ind preferably. You need to have enough land and high enough quality, otherwise the hammers are better spent rushing. High enough happy cap, no point getting pop if you can't use it.

+1 will be useful only in very long games, getting to industrial era.

It's definitely not a game saver wonder like GLH or Mids can be with weak land.

 

[reddishrecue]

Like all other ancient wonders, the effects of THG usually go obsolete and wear off after awhile. The extra happiness goes away but the extra +1 population per city stays.. That, to me looks useful since most other ancient wonders go obsolete and no longer work.

 

[bhavv]

Mids is overrated because HR is great anyway.

 

[pandamancer]

Like all other ancient wonders, the effects of THG usually go obsolete and wear off after awhile. The extra happiness goes away but the extra +1 population per city stays.. That, to me looks useful since most other ancient wonders go obsolete and no longer work.

I don't have a memory that THG does provide happiness. Are you talking about civ3?

It needs quite favourable circumstances, at least on higher levels. You need to be able to expand so fast that HG is hammer positive, but still tech fast enough to be able to get the wonder. Stone/ind preferably. You need to have enough land and high enough quality, otherwise the hammers are better spent rushing. High enough happy cap, no point getting pop if you can't use it.

+1 will be useful only in very long games, getting to industrial era.

It's definitely not a game saver wonder like GLH or Mids can be with weak land.

Yes, we share the same sentiment. I feel the HG too situational and yet offers too little.

Pyramids is a much stronger wonder but also comes a lot earlier. This makes the 'mids compete more directly with the crucial first expansion phase.

When it comes to comparing cost, don't just look at raw numbers. The pyramids locks up a much larger percentage of your empires total production capacity and workforce.

In total, the mids is just a much bigger investment.

It's case to case basis. I strongly believe that with Ind and stone, it is possible to juggle expansion and wonder building. I'm not saying it is always doable but you can.
If because "math chops" make HG more feasible. Why not research math as well for mids or overflow the hammers for mids. I do that more often than not.

HR offers infinite happiness, but pretty much nothing offers you infinite health.

If you are talking about health bonus, I don't see it as an issue until factories come to play.

HG pop bonus spreads over your cities, so if an opponent builds it, you won't gain the full benefit again by conquest of the specific city.

I don't buy this reasoning. The +1 population is not something I would rush for just to get it; however, for wonders like Oracle or Taj Mahal I might consider that.

It is true that the aqueduct is a significant cost, but well, at least you got an aqueduct.

Aqueducts are useless in early game. In case of failgold, you wasted 100 which you cannot get it back until late game.

 

[Zacar]

Yeah, many good points were already mentioned, so I just filled some gaps.

Health equals free food for large cities. Not terribly radical I know, but it isn't always entirely useless before industrialism.

Ultimately HG is a collection of small nice things, not a single significant bonus.

 

[reddishrecue]

I don't have a memory that THG does provide happiness. Are you talking about civ3?

I checked bts civilopedia and found out that I was talking about civ 1. Civ 4 has +1 health in all cities.

 

[bhavv]

It would be better if it was +2 health in all cities. +1 is quite small, but still health becomes a huge limiting factor in the end game.

 

[cseanny]

Nuked!