Harappans and Native Americans?

[Ptahotep]

Hi everyone!
I have a question about file "RFCDoC\Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4CivilizationInfos". I found there, like in threads title, Harappans and Native Americans. It doesn't work at all, but it is.

<Type>CIVILIZATION_HARAPPANS</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CIV_HARAPPANS_DESC</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_CIV_HARAPPANS_SHORT_DESC</ShortDescription>
<Adjective>TXT_KEY_CIV_HARAPPANS_ADJECTIVE</Adjective>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV_HARAPPANS_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<DefaultPlayerColor>PLAYERCOLOR_LIGHT_GREEN</DefaultPlayerColor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_CIVILIZATION_HARAPPANS</ArtDefineTag>
<ArtStyleType>ARTSTYLE_MIDDLE_EAST</ArtStyleType> <!-- Rhye -->

<Type>CIVILIZATION_NATIVE_AMERICA</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_CIV_NATIVE_AMERICA_DESC</Description>
<ShortDescription>TXT_KEY_CIV_NATIVE_AMERICA_SHORT_DESC</ShortDescription>
<Adjective>TXT_KEY_CIV_NATIVE_AMERICA_ADJECTIVE</Adjective>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV_NATIVE_AMERICA_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<DefaultPlayerColor>PLAYERCOLOR_LIGHT_BROWN</DefaultPlayerColor>
<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_CIVILIZATION_NATIVE_AMERICA</ArtDefineTag>
<ArtStyleType>ARTSTYLE_SOUTH_AMERICA</ArtStyleType

What is this? Because it looks quite interesting!

If it is my fail, maybe I have mixed this file with another - sorry, but I don't remember anything like this.

 

[migck]

The XML has all the civs from vanilla, even if they aren't used in the scenario. 'Native America' is already represented by barbarian Mohawk musketmen and mounted Braves harassing the colonial powers and the USA.
As for Harappans, I don't know the details, maybe Leoreth was planning replacing the Indian start at 3000BC from regular Rhye with them. But they would be in the game an awfully short time then if they collapse when the Indians appear.

 

[Leoreth]

Native America is just in because they are a BtS civilization. I once considered including the Indus Valley Civilization, so I added all of their stuff, but they didn't make it into the game in the end because I didn't think they would work.

In both cases it's mostly about them being AIs which would get in the way of the human playing experience as one of their neighbors.

I have some ideas on how to utilize them actually, but that will have to wait for some time.

 

[VGL]

Native Americans aren't represented well

 

[Ptahotep]

Ok, now I understand. Thanks for reply!

 

[Leoreth]

Native Americans aren't represented well

A good implementation of non-urban cultures is hard in this game. Civ is very biased in that regard.

(I know that Native American cities existed in North America, but urban culture did not last very long after the European arrival so their existence would pose serious alt-history problems with regard to colonization.)

 

[merijn_v1]

What about this suggestion?

Still not a sugestion..but someone played Gengis Khan mod from warlords?

In that mod the mongols starts with a special unit named Camp..that unit just product another units..according to terrain..

Well..i talking about that because some people here suggest the add of native american peoples

Well they never settled a city..but maybe they can start with this unit the camp..and just product units..(Dog Soldier,Mohalk and brave horseman*Its something like that)

And IF they are capable to take a city...at that point the history is changed and the natives can try to be a independent country

Probably the AI will be defeated(Thats the ideal) but maybe the players can have a new challenge..make the native americans tribes survived against the power of urbanized civilizations..

Well..now is a suggestion hehe..probably will not added..but thats not a bad idea after all

And my adjustments.

The code wouldn't be a problem. It's entirely python. Copy-Paste (and maybe some minor adjustments) would be enough.

But it shouldn't included as a playable civ. But maybe they can act as a barb spawning spot. It will create extra barbarians. (The normal barb spawn maybe has to be softened a little) You can end the thread of extra barbarians by killing it. This removes the thread of (additional) barbs. Some turns later (25-50?), a new camp unit is created and it starts over again.

So when there is a NA camp, the barb pressure is a little more than it is now. But when you destroy it, the barb pressure is a little less.

 

[Leoreth]

I like the camp idea for unplayable civs (or barbarians), but I have no idea how the gameplay experience is supposed to be when you're controlling them. There doesn't seem much to do, you don't have anyone to interact with until the European arrival and you even lose the city management stuff for isolated builder civs.

The Maya are hard enough already (they still need a better 3rd goal for instance), but at least they have stuff to build and research.

 

[merijn_v1]

In my suggestion, they aren't playable. Only a dynamic barbarian/native spawning site. Not dealing with them just creates some extra barbs.

The regular barbs spawn will have to be adjusted ofcourse.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes that's fine with me and would indeed be a better representation of natives and barbarians in general. Instead of random spawns you would have barbarian hubs that you can destroy to completely or mostly get rid of barbarians.

Make these camps sufficiently strong units (or associate strong defense-only units with them) and it would become an interesting trade off whether you should play defensively or actively go after them.

 

[jackelgull]

I like this idea, but I'm worried that if left alone, like in the Americas (because we all know that the AI is unlikely to remove these themselves) these camps could become 100 unit SoD that would then roll over all other civilizations it comes across. I'm pretty sure a human player would nip this problem in the bud before it becomes one, but AIs on other continents may not be so smart. So maybe there should be a hard cap on how many units one camp can produce, like 20 to 25?

 

[Leoreth]

That's a good point. I don't think it makes much sense to have them appear before they have anything to interact with. Native American representation is great but to have them running around in North America before the European arrival (except in an Aztec context) seems sort of pointless.

Maybe a good solution is to only let them produce units once they are close to proper civilizations, which is both realistic and solves this gameplay problem.

 

[jackelgull]

Again, how would you define proper civilizations? Do you mean the traditional colonial powers? Then what if the human playing an Asian civ finds the New World first and colonizes it? Or are you going to define it through continental lines like if this civs core area is not North America or South America and it has a city in the Americas then the Natives would spawn?

 

[DC123456789]

I think in this case proper civilization = any civilization. I don't imagine the Natives would care very who was invading them, be they English, Chinese, or Aztec, they would still put up a fight to defend their lands.

 

[Leoreth]

Again, how would you define proper civilizations? Do you mean the traditional colonial powers? Then what if the human playing an Asian civ finds the New World first and colonizes it? Or are you going to define it through continental lines like if this civs core area is not North America or South America and it has a city in the Americas then the Natives would spawn?

Sorry, proper civilization = civilization in the game, especially not minor civilizations like Natives or Independents.

Didn't mean to imply that Amerindians aren't proper civilizations (insert lengthy comment about the historical value of the term civilization here).

 

[JujuLautre]

Would there be a possibility of plunking down some forts of the map and make so that the natives can get defensive bonus points when inside them and/or attacking from them? Maybe as long as the tile is not in someone's culture, so that you could also absorb them. This way, there would still be something to represent the natives presence. You could also make natives spawn from the forts then.

I know the term "fort" is not really representative, but that's seems to me to be the closest thing in-game that could represent settlements which are not cities.

 

[Leoreth]

That's actually similar to what I had in mind for tribal villages at some point.

 

[Publicola]

I know the term "fort" is not really representative, but that's seems to me to be the closest thing in-game that could represent settlements which are not cities.

This reminds me of another thread which proposed greatly expanding the role of 'forts' for minor villages, colonies, etc. The most important new element would be having forts expand your culture to cover the 9-tiles around it, similar to the 'starport' element in the Final Frontier mod (how that hasn't been used by other mods or modmods, I have no idea). The fort's culture would be 100% on the tile itself, but 0% on the tiles around it, so foreign culture can encroach but not conquer, though perhaps forts might be traded after the discovery of a certain tech (Nationalism?)

Another idea: allow such 'forts' to be upgraded (again similar to different levels of 'Starport' from the FF mod), so that the earliest primitive forts are mere outposts, but by the time you get to reach colonization, they can build additional defensive structures, worker/workboat units, and even build a 'settler' to make themselves a city. There would be a stability penalty for losing such outposts, but it'd be temporary and/or smaller than losing an actual city. Outposts/colonies would deteriorate to ruins or be absorbed by neighbors in the event of a civ collapsing, etc.

Thoughts?

 

[Leoreth]

Why not cities?

 

[Publicola]

Why not cities?

No or minimal maintenance cost, minimal effect on stability for controlling foreign tiles by fort (and no effect or temporary effect for losing them), enable a more realistic mercantilist economy (colonies were originally meant to funnel resources to home country, and couldn't really be called 'cities' in their own right until much later, America being the notable exception thanks to 'salutary neglect').

You could probably adjust the 'mercantilist' civic to make these colonies even more beneficial, which would encourage the use of that particular economic model in a time when it was all the rage. You could also create diplomacy options allowing other civs to create such outposts within your territory (like a military base in an allied nation).

This reform would also give substance to the fort improvement -- there isn't a problem in vanilla Civ IV, but as another commentator put it, in Rhye & DoC, cities are the equivalent of countries or regions, so why should we include a region-sized military base?