Harbors ... worth it ?

[yyeah]

Map settings

Spoiler :

Random leader
12 random ais

Land

Spoiler :

My tech path here was.

Mining->BW->Agc->Sailing->Mansonry->Pottery->Writing->Aste->Currency->Compas

I had luck and manage to bulid The Great Lighthouse.

Allright so to the point.
On this map as you can see all mine cities are rly good, i meen food heavy,i can ezy grow them to s10 + i have TGL.
Becosue of that is it worth it to go Compas and bulid Harbors, instand of CoL -> CS ?

Allso, iam struglling with decisions on what map circumstances go and selftech Optics.
If yes when to do this... i meen befor CS or after.

I decided here to go for Compas and Harbors ( i think never done that befor), becosue i wanted to go selftech Optics reasons:
- i have 9 more civs to meet
- nobody have MC, Compas, it can be good trade
- and yea Harbors can be good buildings if i can ezy grow my cities

Overall 2 questions:
Is it worth it to go Optics befor CS with this circumstances befor CS ?.
Is it worth it to go Compas and bulid Harbors befor CS ?.

tech tree

Spoiler :

tech race

Spoiler :

http://s10.ifotos.pl/img/3png_sxqxshq.png

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I think it is defensible to self-research Compass and delay Civil Service on such a map.
However :
- accessing Harbors wouldn't be the critical factor - Harbors are a cheap means to get health but they're really expensive to boost commerce ;
- maybe your timing isn't best and you could have delayed Compass with benefit (both CoL --> Caste and Metal Casting --> trade (for Machinery ?) are competing options).

Provided one isn't just looking for a trade bait (Compass),
The key aspect of getting Compass before CS is that it opens an Astronomy bulb pre-Liberalism. CS locks that bulb, opening Paper, Education, Printing Press.
If you're going to stop at Optics for Caravels, I wouldn't think delaying CS is a strong move (Astro brings so much more than Optics and getting Optics is a strong committment, already).
Now, this is a Continents map, you're PHI, your capital isn't swarmed with rivers. Being Philosophical, especially, supports an Astrobulb strategy.

However, to Astrobulb, researching Compass early isn't key.
- Getting the GPs in time is key (where PHI gets its edge) ;
- Getting the pre-requisites in time is key. The trade policy is what can help the most, here.

To get the pre-requisites for such a bulb, researching Metal Casting early and trading it all around would be a strong move, since it would increase the chances that AIs would research Machinery.
Setting up a trade of Compass + XXX = Machinery is worth 1000 beakers and can save 8-12 turns towards Astronomy.

On CoL, having Meditation means you're bulbing Philosophy before bulbing anything else.
This isn't necessarily bad :
- If you're running Caste, Pacifism can pay for itself by providing an extra GP ;
- there may be some incidental benefit like getting a religion and Pleasing your neighbours ;
- +100% everywhere will help support further bulbs (not just Astro but towards Education, too).

CoL is a tech that could be skipped entirely. I don't know. I suppose this depends on your timings and your cities.
As it is, with so many multiple food cities, I can only guess that Caste would be a strong civic to switch into.

Maybe Currency is the tech that was unnecessary to you, if rushing towards Astro, and getting Metal Casting would have been best.
Currency is always useful but, somehow, having already the GLH, the advantage it gives isn't as great as usual.
(You're getting the same number of trade routes but, instead of doubling your count, you're adding about +1/3 to your overall number of trade routes.)
On the other hand, Currency gives you cash to fund research... so maybe it was worth it, after all, and maybe it should rather be Aesthetics that should be questioned, or just the last tech you researched : Compass.
Finding a window to get an early Metal Casting would likely make things easier/faster. In this light, maybe skipping Aesthetics is the most affordable choice.


Hmmm... All of this is to take with a grain of salt.
It's hard to judge the development of a game from the outside.


Redundancy :
Civil Service wouldn't net you immediately with great benefits in terms of commerce. It will, later on, time for your tiles to develop.
If you were considering the use of Macemen, then it would all be a different story.
As it is, the stake is : delayed Bureaucracy for Astrobulb, not wasting Liberalism on Astronomy.
I've actually never bulbed Astro before Liberalism, mostly because I've never gotten the GPs early enough to warrant delaying CS. The presence of a strong Bureau cap also deters from such a strategy.



ps : small play :
You can steal the pigs tile from Hammurabi by settling with it in the 1st ring.
Being CRE and having your capital exert influence over the tile will make it an easy matter.

 

[elmurcis]

Maybe I play too much water games (and I do a lot.. as much as others Pangea ) but I would say yes.. Still - with trade routes on same landmass Harbors shouldn't pay back fast enough (not sure but with Ai on same landmass can get 2 commerce, maybe 3 max? without Harbors I mean.. but as soon as Astro would jump in party (trade routes with others continents are so tasty), difference should be good enough to pay back pretty fast (profit from Harbor with GLH will be atleast +4 commerce/city every turn, bigger cities could get +2 commerce from each trade route)..

 

[BornInCantaloup]

profit from Harbor with GLH will be atleast +4 commerce/city every turn, bigger cities could get +2 commerce from each trade route

That would be neat but... are you sure ?
Harbors only give +50% trade routes yield.
As I understand it, this modifier is applied to the base value of the trade route. Which often isn't very high.

Otoh, I don't how the roundings work for trade routes.
What I do know is that getting a base value of 2, for a trade route, requires a lot of growth to happen.

 

[yyeah]

@ elmurcis

Yes i gain +4 +3 in each city/x6, so overall i think is worth it.
I didnt manage to grow rest of my cities, up to s10, becouse i dont have any reseources ;/.
But i just whip Forges, Odeons etc etc everywhere so my cities are fully developed at s7-8 right now.

@BornInCantaloup
Wait a minute you can bulb Astro ? . omfg i didnt knew that. geez i could done it ezy.
So what you need ?
After Optics you can bulb Astro with GS ?

Edit.
Bulbing Philo wasnt great move here becosue we dont have religion, and some1 found Taoism in 950BC .
Allso without religion i just cant get them to friendly, Justinian was only 1 with Machinery but he didnt want to trade it ;/.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ elmurcis
Yes i gain +4 +3 in each city/x6, so overall i think is worth it.

@BornInCantaloup
Wait a minute you can bulb Astro ? .

Bulbing Philo wasnt great move here becosue we dont have religion, and some1 found Taoism in 950BC .

My bad, then, if they provide +4 commerce in their cities, building Harbors for commerce would pay off nicely.
It's a different thing to say that Compass >> Civil Service, though, mostly because adopting Bureaucracy comes at 0 hammer cost.
It can be better, but that is dependent on the level of your infrastructure : if your cities aren't so well developed that they won't build Harbors in a short timeframe, then CS may pay off better.
(Also Macemen, again.)


You sure can bulb Astronomy. It actually ranks pretty high in the Great Scientist tech preference list.
I thought you were heading that way all along
As I've tried to say, getting the GPs in time is the most difficult aspect of this move.
Being PHI is a great help.

Fair enough @ religion and Taoism being founded so early.
I believe most people consider that CoL & Philosophy are a delay towards Astronomy. I'm not so sure because Caste + Pacifism is such a huge combo and you need some time to research past Machinery anyway.

 

[dutchfire]

ps : small play :
You can steal the pigs tile from Hammurabi by settling with it in the 1st ring.
Being CRE and having your capital exert influence over the tile will make it an easy matter.

Yeah, 3N1W of Athens looks nice, to steal the pigs and to help the capital with its cottages.

 

[yyeah]

You sure can bulb Astronomy. It actually ranks pretty high in the Great Scientist tech preference list.
I thought you were heading that way all along
As I've tried to say, getting the GPs in time is the most difficult aspect of this move.
Being PHI is a great help.

Yea that would be perfect move here ... but i didnt aware of it, never done it, and just didnt have this option in my notebook .
Just bulb Astro and go for CS, Engi. I went for Engi anyway and yea that saved my life beocuse Hammy decided to , but yea i could have Astro allrdy ...
At least i learned something

Overall this is rnd generated map but when i saw this land, my first though was culture vic, and maybe even try to beat Seraiel's 1370 AD date, but unfortunatly i dont have Marble , cant do it without Sistine Chapel.

Yeah, 3N1W of Athens looks nice, to steal the pigs and to help the capital with its cottages.

Yea i wanted to do this after he took my spot, but Nippur is 1NE from Pigs ;/. You cant see it becouse i didnt scout it.
But i will take my Pigs back! ,this way or another .

 

[Seraiel]

Overall this is rnd generated map but when i saw this land, my first though was culture vic, and maybe even try to beat Seraiel's 1370 AD date, but unfortunatly i dont have Marble , cant do it without Sistine Chapel.

You want to get me to play again, right? ^^

I'll tell you honestly, forget about being competetive with a continents map. How do you want to achieve a cultural-victory, with some of the religions not being on your continent? Also, better stay away from my victory-dates. I know, 11xx cultural victory is possible, but I also know, how hard 13xx already is to achieve. I just looked, the game took me only 9h to play, but it's from the endphase of my CIV-time, I was very experienced with Cultural-victories back then, it's on an optimal map and has optimal opponents. Chances you'll beat that game on a continents map, are nigligable m8.
You're right btw., Sistine C. is needed for competetive cultural victories. Did you know, that a state-religion-Temple can give over 20 in endgame? Pay attention, to building the corresponding Monestaries early aswell, so that they also double.

 

[yyeah]

You want to get me to play again, right? ^^

Well i dont know do you ?. Dont you miss civ ?
It wasnt about you Seraiel it was about map ( L ) and Vic condition , and yea you have that spot but i saw it after i pick my settings
Btw i saw you around, last days, nice to c you how are you ?

I'll tell you honestly, forget about being competetive with a continents map. How do you want to achieve a cultural-victory, with some of the religions not being on your continent?
Found a religion

Also, better stay away from my victory-dates.
That was rude

I know, 11xx cultural victory is possible, but I also know, how hard 13xx already is to achieve. I just looked, the game took me only 9h to play, but it's from the endphase of my CIV-time, I was very experienced with Cultural-victories back then, it's on an optimal map and has optimal opponents. Chances you'll beat that game on a continents map, are nigligable m8.
You're right btw., Sistine C. is needed for competetive cultural victories. Did you know, that a state-religion-Temple can give over 20 in endgame? Pay attention, to building the corresponding Monestaries early aswell, so that they also double.

I was more thinking about setting up farms here, not looking for some1 to spread religion for me. Thoughts was that GPs will be my main "generators"
Iam not expirienced with Vic but i could ahve here 3 cities with +/+ 5 resources + Cre + Phi + Odeons etc etc. iam not saying that i could beat you, but iam preety sure that it is possible to have a decent date.

1234

 

[Seraiel]

With GPs, you can get 1.5 cities to legendary, but you need 3. There's no way to get around Cathedrals. There's a great guide by Jesusin, a HoF-player who specialized on Cultural-victory, read it. There's also Replay #7, a very short writeup with very well illustrated posts onto the religion-spreading-phase. I didn't want an AI to spread religion for you, that takes way too long, but you need to get at least 1 city with a religion, to be able to spread it towards your others cities yourself, and having less than 3 religions really hurts the time of victory, because the Cathedrals are the key towards the high, regular . This again can be seen very well in my writeup of Replay #7. I got cities producing over 800 / T in the end, and that's because the Cathedrals are the multipliers of the base- . CRE, Odeons, those are non-factors in a Cultural-victory, what you need is from all possible sources and Cathedrals to multiply it. The 3 sources are 1. (slider) 2. buildings (especially those 20+ Sistine-Temples/Monestaries) and 3. Specialists. That all gets multiplied by 300%+ from the Cathedrals (and Hermitage) . The absolute limit to Cultural-victory, is the speed at which you can get the capital to legendary. GP-Farm can be bombed with GAs, yes, 2nd city can also be GA-pushed, but at least one city needs to reach the threshold either completely normally or with a maximum of 2 culture-bombs, and that is the capital, so (ideal case) build the Hermitage in the capital (and just don't get 6 Prophets like I did in the best-culture-game I ever played, because I built a Shrine without thinking about it in the GP-Farm, and you know, how true that "5%-chance" actually can be ^^) .

And thx for asking, I'm ok / well . And yes, I've thought of CIV several times. If I wouldn't love CIV + CFC, then I wouldn't be here, but I just don't know, if it would make any sense to start CIVing again. Camelot Unchained will be released in several months from now, and I'm looking forward to playing it. I will be able to play in an amazing team in that game, and otoh, what speaks so much against CIV is, that it's almost impossible for me to become better than I was, because in the end, I went so far as to work to achieve certain results, so I worked instead of playing, and I even accepted suffering instead of joy, so I really reached my own, personal limit. I'd need years to reach the same level of play I had, without those two things (working instead of playing and accepting to suffer for a better result) , tell me, how much fun does playing make, when you know, that the results are worse than the ones you could have gotten in earlier times?
I'm gonna come back to these forums from time to time again and will try to give the best advice I can. If anything good can come from me having gone that far, it's that I share the knowledge that I aquired while doing that. Maybe someone else, won't feel the need then, to do things, that I believe only few people find understandable, and that most people aren't willing to accept, because the general concensus on games is, that they're ment to be fun, and that gaming is ment for recreational purposes. For me, it's actually fun to not play, and me currently not playing means, that I need less recreation from it . I'm currently thinking, about setting up a RAM Disk and installing that game again. I actually always wanted an Ephtalon, it's 3 weeks 'til studies begin, and I have semester break from Feb 'til April... then July 'til October... ... ...