has any one been had open borders with isabella and/or tokugawa

[Esox]

I have to disagree with your theory on Japan.

Fair enough. My point is, I just have never had any luck dealing with Toku, and it seems strange to always get shunned by the same AI.

 

[Sisiutil]

Isabella can be very friendly in the early game before you have a state religion. If and when you adopt a state religion other than hers, she hates your guts and may war on you at the drop of a hat. Later in the game when you discover Liberalism and adopt Free Religion, she gets friendly again.

Toku is Civ's uber-isolationist. It's very unusual to have him as an ally or friend, and usually not worth the trouble. Give him long enough and he'll be woefully behind everyone because he refuses to tech trade.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

You notice the reasons for this more with higher lvls and aggressive AI settings:- all things being equal (no religion and no "you traded with our worst enemies" for example) when you first meet the "pacifist type" nations, Gandhi, Frederick, Hatty for example, they will be at a cautious diplo lvl with you..
The more aggressive ones will start annoyed...the insane ones (yes thats you with the permanent pout, you in the village people headress, and you at the back with the dodgy moustache ignoring everyone else) seem to start the furious side of annoyed..and there they will stay (or get even crosser) unless you give them stuff...

I've had the mad catalan woman at +6 with me and still only cautious, and then slipping to annoyed when I fail to gift her the tech I've just spent a century researching (on marathon lvl btw)..

No Tog I can cope with (he has an alarm clock that rings periodically to remind him its time to randomly attack someone), but the Spanish woman is too cranky to live with; I'd rather her stay furious until I decide to kill her..hey its the only way to be sure

 

[Zanmato]

I managed to get Tok friendly with me for sharing the same religion although I didn't have open borders with him. He is now the sole remaining Civ on my island. Switched to Free Religion and now he's Cautious and woefully behind on techs. He has Rifles which will soon be driven over by my Tanks.
In the same game, I found Isabella, Monty and Ceasar on another island. All annoyed with me, they didn't want open borders - Isabella was first to strike, now I'm dealing with Monty but neither have brought nothing more than a pillaging party.

 

[Monado]

I've had open boarders with Isabella many times. I have had open boarders with Tokagowa only once, when my religion randomly spread to his capital city and he converted. We also had the same civics so he was pleased with me and asked for open boarders.

 

[StarWorms]

Both of them are totally bi-polar. They'll either love you or hate you, depending on your religion. Isabella is the best neighbour if you're willing to share her religion. If you don't she'll hate you.

That's the problem with her. I found one religion, she founds the other (Buddhism and Hinduism). Tokugawa once declared war on me when we had a +6 relationship

 

[Dagoril]

I'm actually more annoyed by Asoka. Nothing I do ever makes her happy, she's always Cautious with me. And she pretty much constantly demands that I gift her expensive techs, and demands I stop trading with other people. I've started refusing to trade with her at all, just on principle hehe. Well that and she can pull into the lead if you give her too much

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm actually more annoyed by Asoka. Nothing I do ever makes her happy, she's always Cautious with me. And she pretty much constantly demands that I gift her expensive techs, and demands I stop trading with other people. I've started refusing to trade with her at all, just on principle hehe. Well that and she can pull into the lead if you give her too much

Well, you see, that's your problem right there.

Asoka is male.

No wonder he's ticked at you.

 

[JoeBas]

Two words. Random Personalities.

 

[jimbob27]

Well, you see, that's your problem right there.

Asoka is male.

No wonder he's ticked at you.

Haha... That made me laugh.

I always get annoyed when I see osaka, cos it means I don't have the ever-cowardly ghandi to bully around

 

[lord_graywolfe]

well the game im in right now toku was always pleased with me and asking for open borders. i woudnt give them to him cause im making nice cat and she hates him. he is gone now but he was very nice always trading with me. i also have isabella and she has been hot and cold. sometimes trading sometimes not. we currently have open boarders course at this time she has a permant allicance with china who i have a great relationship.

 

[AluminumKnight]

Isabella single-handedly saved one of my games, and so I forgave her for the time she declared war on me for no reason at all.

I was Saladin, going for cultural win. Completely out of nowhere (I had only met him not too long ago), Caesar decides to declare war on me. Maybe I should have immediately switching to military production, but he wasn't threatening me except taking a barb city I had just taken, so I continued building culture, leaving only 1 city building military. Years passed, and Caesar would still not give up, or attack. I decided to go try and take back that barb city, and he suicided many archers against my chariots, but I had to retreat because they were injured. When I went back, surprise surprise, Praetorians... 3 of them, and 2 more about to land near one of my less defended cities. I fended them off, barely, but it was clear that he had plenty more.

I figured I was screwed. But then I remembered, Isabella had converted to Hinduism (since I had founded all religons except Buddhism) many years ago, and I had been trading with her ever since then. So I traded a few techs for war with Caesar, and after a few turns of Spanish horsemen and swordsmen, Caesar was finally willing to negotiate. So I switched to Pacifism and now am well on my way to winning

 

[DrewBledsoe]

This bugs the hell out of me, and its why recently I find it almost impossible to get open borders with Tog, illustrated by the 2 screenshots below:-

Tog's attitude to Saladin



Tog to me



Just three of us on a snakey continent early on..(I've just met Capac)...for flip's sake, I'm + 1 better than Saladin with Tog, yet he's Pleased with him and only Cautious with me

Cruel, cruel penalty for playing higher lvls I suppose..unless I gift him resources (when in the words of the redline "that goes against everything I stand for)...I've even tried that in some games and then got attacked..I'm just waiting in a few years for him to demand I cancel my deals with Capac, well no way Mr. Moustache man, at least he's open to a deal...

 

[princecharles]

I had a creepy game once. On epic speed, I signed defensive pacts with two civs because Napolean got his musketeers before I had musketmen. Needless to say, he attacked, and Tokugawa(1st defensive pact) came to my recue witha hoard of samurai's and catapualts, and took three cities before stopping his rampage. Then, Montezuma attacked France's rear, and managed to take paris. Thats right, I made a defensive pact with the guy who, when pleased, has a smile on his face, and a dagger in your back.

 

[Gumbolt]

my previous game tok was pleased with me we had open borders 90% of game and he declared war on whoever i asked. His military was somewhat smaller than mine although he was second most powerful of 6 or AI left on map.

 

[DrewBledsoe]

Slight update to early post, its now 500 years later, and well; after gifting him a resource for a while, then selling it to him, then when Capac attacked me out of the blue, gifting him 3 techs to join in, and after a 120 year war with Capac (hell of a long time on marathon), I've reached the position on the screenshot below...



But check the world map option, it redlines as "we don't like you enough"...you what? What on earth do I have to do to get you to like me even more (was thinking of a rather rude follow up but I'd better not )

Anyways, the real challenge or real question should be, "Have you ever got a World Map off Tok, or Isabella"...

 

[Sisiutil]

Lots of civs are reluctant to give up their world maps--especially if they're going for the circumnavigation bonus. Even after that's been determined, I find several civs still reluctant to trade it. Elizabeth in particular, no matter how friendly we get, is loathe to part with it.

 

[wiseguy101]

I was way behind in terms of score on my first noble game, and Isabella asked me for open borders, and I accepted because I needed to know what she had in her cities... then she completely decimated all of my cities and I lost the game

 

[Jasond]

Togugawa is a back stabber. We opened boarders, early game (200BC) and around 1204AD He brings all his troops near my boarder, Declares war and takes 4 of my cities, it takes about a decade to recover.

Nexttime I see togugawa trying to ally me it's time for me to gun him down!

 

[Dagoril]

Heh this cracked me up...in the game I was playing last night, I was Napoleon, and both Isabella and Monty were on my continent. Was glad I picked an agressive civ hehe. I was planning on wiping out Izzy and then going after Monty, but he ended up declaring war on her...I was so happy they were fighting each other, but then he started taking her cities and I got worried. So I ended up jumping in and saving Isabella! Declared war on Monty, razed some of his cities, and finally got him to give both of us peace. He attacked her again a few hundred years later, and I razed a few more cities, and even had my units wandering around Izzy's empire, mopping up the Aztec scum hehe. Kept gifting her techs to keep him from wiping her out. Oh the irony, saving the hated Isabella