snapple232
Warlord
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2007
- Messages
- 101
Very interested to know.
Has the combat AI improved?
- Thread starter snapple232
- Start date
thecrush19
Chieftain
In my first game, it was not noticeable. I was Attila and I conquered Siam and Carthage. However, the AI does now build a navy, as Harald had about 15 triremes in his sea lanes on the other continent.
xxhe
Prince
It's not too bad as some reviews said, actually. In my first game, the AI uses combined range attacks very efficiently now, especially in defense wars. However, the AI is still awkward sometimes in attacking, at least the ranged units are not well-protected.
Just got done with a duel game where I played as the Celts and conquered Sweden.
And two things:
1) The longer-lasting units thing is more forgiving on the AI's tendancy to rush a unit ahead, get it beat up, and bring it back a few steps. Thus, AI units are tougher to take down, since you can't easily kill them in that 1 or 2 turns where a few of their guys get ahead of the rest.
2) There's still some issues with the AI moving non-combatents into the path of my invading force. After about 20 turns of being at war with them, Sweden decided it was time to expand and moved an unprotected Settler to a tile adjacent to my Pictish Warrior. Needless to say, I captured it without even a fight.
And two things:
1) The longer-lasting units thing is more forgiving on the AI's tendancy to rush a unit ahead, get it beat up, and bring it back a few steps. Thus, AI units are tougher to take down, since you can't easily kill them in that 1 or 2 turns where a few of their guys get ahead of the rest.
2) There's still some issues with the AI moving non-combatents into the path of my invading force. After about 20 turns of being at war with them, Sweden decided it was time to expand and moved an unprotected Settler to a tile adjacent to my Pictish Warrior. Needless to say, I captured it without even a fight.
Gamewizard
Emperor
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2011
- Messages
- 1,234
I'm still in the middle of my first game, King level...playing as Theodora with the Huns sharing a continent with me. He spammed Trebuchets and easily took one of my outskirt cities and then retook the Japanese capital that I took from him early in the game. I have another city about 5 tiles northwest of Kyoto so I plant my GG as a Citadel to prevent further losses. He asks for straight up peace, I accept, and then the next turn he plants 2 GGs right next to each other between Kyoto and my Citadel'd city, thus claiming my Citadel in the process (now that planting Citadels have a Culture Bomb effect, in case you didn't know). I was and still am completely shocked by the move. I am in the process of sending my other GG cross continent to reclaim my Citadel and take one of his as well. It is going to look strange with 4 Citadels right next to each other, should prove interesting when we go back to war.
The thing that helps the AI so much, atleast in my situation, was that the Trebs were just so hard to kill. The terrain is all hills and jungle so it was hard to attack a treb, kill it and retreat before getting pummeled by the 2 or 3 trebs behind the one I'm attacking, even with the 4 move knights I was pumping out. He was also building Musketmen, which are much stronger now, especially in that jungle mess. I am ahead in tech though, by a large margin, and I expect my Gatling Guns and Artillery to put an end to him.
I have yet to see much Naval action yet, however, so I can't speak on that.
The thing that helps the AI so much, atleast in my situation, was that the Trebs were just so hard to kill. The terrain is all hills and jungle so it was hard to attack a treb, kill it and retreat before getting pummeled by the 2 or 3 trebs behind the one I'm attacking, even with the 4 move knights I was pumping out. He was also building Musketmen, which are much stronger now, especially in that jungle mess. I am ahead in tech though, by a large margin, and I expect my Gatling Guns and Artillery to put an end to him.
I have yet to see much Naval action yet, however, so I can't speak on that.
Txurce
Deity
The AI is noticeably better. It doesn't make nearly as many boneheaded moves, sustains attacks well, lines up correctly, and so on. I would call it an experienced, totally mediocre player. With bonuses, it can do okay. Still pretty dumb: GG wandering around. I haven't encountered a naval attack yet either, but my trireme was attacked by a galleass.
I find that the AI does really well in preparing sneak attacks on cities now. It will rapidly get in formation a few tiles from enemy borders then come crashing over. This alone is a huge improvement.
I've even noticed the AI attempt to retreat with its units to try and preserve them. I've been playing on Emperor level.
I've even noticed the AI attempt to retreat with its units to try and preserve them. I've been playing on Emperor level.
thecrush19
Chieftain
In my first game, I played as Attila, and battering rams upgrade to trebuchets, which is a bit odd. Battering rams can only attack cities, which means those trebs can only attack cities as well. What's even more odd is that battering rams get a penalty in melee combat, which would mean that those trebs must either have rough terrain promotions, or he built them from scratch. If they do have rough terrain promos, then I think we can say the AI has gotten better because of the jungle start with the rough terrain promos.
Gamewizard
Emperor
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2011
- Messages
- 1,234
Well what happened was my religion spread to his cities around the time he must have unlocked Trebs, and he used the Holy Warriors ability to spam them. Plus I think he was building ONLY units after he built the Great Wall...they just kept coming like it was on Deity or something.
As far as promotions go, all his trebs used the same Cover and Shock combo and all his Musketmen used Drill.
As far as promotions go, all his trebs used the same Cover and Shock combo and all his Musketmen used Drill.
The AI seems better, although I haven't played enough to make a final judgment. In my first completed game, I only went to war twice: the very beginning and the very end. Fought Attila early, and he fought well with his units, sniping at units with his Horse Archers but pulling them back when wounded, keeping them protected, etc. Late game (was close to winning a cultural victory), Sweden tipped me off about an Austrian naval attack, so I upgraded my ancient army (I was on my own continent and everyone else was busy killing each other, so I did nothing militarily for most of the game). I wasn't sure if Austria would show up, but they actually did. They showed up and declared war, sending some units with some naval escorts. Not a strong enough attack to do much, but it was enough to at least keep me sort of busy. They even brought some air units on carriers too.
In short, the AI looks at least somewhat better.
In short, the AI looks at least somewhat better.
Civ5 now makes a distinction between "promotions" and "unit abilities". Promotions carry over when you upgrade a unit, unit abilities do not. Negative effects are always unit abilities and don't carry over, as is anything that adds a fixed number to a unit's base strength. The battering ram's melee penalty and "can only attack cities" are unit abilities and don't carry over when they are upgraded. They upgrade into plain, but well-promoted, trebs.
MetaSkipper
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2011
- Messages
- 53
So, for example, Minutemen upgraded to Riflemen will not keep the "ignore terrain" bonus? What about the "rough terrain +1" (forgot actual name) bonus?
I'm failing to notice an improvement in AI tactics... or the 100 hit point scale making any difference. Yeah they upped hitpoints, they also upped damage by what appears to be the same ratio so it takes me just as long to drop an enemy unit as it did back when they only had 10 hit points (my scouts usually do 30-50 per attack which is akin to them doing 3-5 in old system).
I've only got one skirmish to gauge by so far, though... Caesar sent about half a dozen units up towards one of my cities (including some archers which I didn't have yet) then had them mill around shuffling positions (and not attacking despite the fact he DoWed me...) while I surrounded and picked them off one at a time with two warriors and one scout. Think his archers only attacked once and by then they had less than 20 hits left.
I've only got one skirmish to gauge by so far, though... Caesar sent about half a dozen units up towards one of my cities (including some archers which I didn't have yet) then had them mill around shuffling positions (and not attacking despite the fact he DoWed me...) while I surrounded and picked them off one at a time with two warriors and one scout. Think his archers only attacked once and by then they had less than 20 hits left.
The AI seems a little better about numbers and positioning. When I was backstabbed by two separate AI at the same time (!) they had hordes of melee advancing in front of ranged and catapults. Previously if I bloodied their nose a bit they would back off quickly, but this time they were in it to win it.
Haven't been enough battles yet, but tactical AI is better. They will harass you with ranged units on defense and because of the 100 HP fix, it's very hard to knock those out with one shot without exposing your own units to direct fire.
There's still a lot of situations I haven't seen, but one thing is clear, and part of it is already in vanilla Civ5 is the AI will hold substantian reserves even when one of their cities is threatened and those units could be sitting the next city over. They'll throw a bait your way and then swarm you when you get distracted.
There's also minor bug fixes like sea units pillaging sea improvements. This is something I'm 80% sure the AI wasn't doing or it wasn't doing enough of before as I'd take cities with fully improved sea tiles even though the AI had a navy.
I think IMHO, very early impression, is that scaling up HP to 100 is a far more significant shift than any tactical improvements or code tweaks. The biggest weakness to Civ5's tactical level strategy is that with enough ranged units and just a few fast attackers (keshik etc.) you can pretty much kill enemy units with impunity while not exposing your army to real danger.
Just knock out the defending units, swarm artillery/cannons/catapuls then rush the city. By making units last longer and making it harder to one-shot weaker units, players are forced to really get in there and fight.
Lastly as the tech tree has lengthened, I find it's much more difficult to have Civs in relative tech parity, but have one Civ wiping the floor with Rifles because they focused on that branch of the tree. The expanded tech tree and rebalanced units means the opportunity cost of gambits like those are much higher.
One big question left is air power. I haven't gotten that far yet. I still want to get a hang of the new early/mid game.
There's still a lot of situations I haven't seen, but one thing is clear, and part of it is already in vanilla Civ5 is the AI will hold substantian reserves even when one of their cities is threatened and those units could be sitting the next city over. They'll throw a bait your way and then swarm you when you get distracted.
There's also minor bug fixes like sea units pillaging sea improvements. This is something I'm 80% sure the AI wasn't doing or it wasn't doing enough of before as I'd take cities with fully improved sea tiles even though the AI had a navy.
I think IMHO, very early impression, is that scaling up HP to 100 is a far more significant shift than any tactical improvements or code tweaks. The biggest weakness to Civ5's tactical level strategy is that with enough ranged units and just a few fast attackers (keshik etc.) you can pretty much kill enemy units with impunity while not exposing your army to real danger.
Just knock out the defending units, swarm artillery/cannons/catapuls then rush the city. By making units last longer and making it harder to one-shot weaker units, players are forced to really get in there and fight.
Lastly as the tech tree has lengthened, I find it's much more difficult to have Civs in relative tech parity, but have one Civ wiping the floor with Rifles because they focused on that branch of the tree. The expanded tech tree and rebalanced units means the opportunity cost of gambits like those are much higher.
One big question left is air power. I haven't gotten that far yet. I still want to get a hang of the new early/mid game.
They aren't as douchey either anymore. Inca is now my neighbor after we merged our borders by invading Germany and knocking him out of the game. Germany also built a sizable navy as well. Unfortunately for him it was all tiremes and I built a army instead. I took out most of his ships just with the crossbowmen I had on the coast and then I took his capital with some cannons and minutemen.
The Incas have been a long time ally before that but I was able to build up and keep the relationship completely positive. He doesn't covet my lands or hate me with anything and in fact I was able to sign a defensive pact with him which I have NEVER been able to do before.
Other Civs have been easy to get along with as well. I've got Russia, Spain, and the Celts on good terms as well and they don't randomly denounce me for no reason either. The Iriquous which is my other neighbor doesn't like me at all though but thats ok cause no one likes him either and he only has one city so hes pretty irrelevant.
England is evil. I noticed a sizable navy with some land units floating around my borders. Not sure what she is doing with him and the Incas did say she was plotting against me. I still have superior tech and army though and once I get a few subs out those ship of the lines will go down easy.
Save for barbarians I have never seen the AI pillage any improvements save ocean improvement if they ever get the chance. I haven't been invaded yet so I can't judge on my current play through in the expansion.
The Incas have been a long time ally before that but I was able to build up and keep the relationship completely positive. He doesn't covet my lands or hate me with anything and in fact I was able to sign a defensive pact with him which I have NEVER been able to do before.
Other Civs have been easy to get along with as well. I've got Russia, Spain, and the Celts on good terms as well and they don't randomly denounce me for no reason either. The Iriquous which is my other neighbor doesn't like me at all though but thats ok cause no one likes him either and he only has one city so hes pretty irrelevant.
England is evil. I noticed a sizable navy with some land units floating around my borders. Not sure what she is doing with him and the Incas did say she was plotting against me. I still have superior tech and army though and once I get a few subs out those ship of the lines will go down easy.
Save for barbarians I have never seen the AI pillage any improvements save ocean improvement if they ever get the chance. I haven't been invaded yet so I can't judge on my current play through in the expansion.
It's harder to take cities now thanks to improved unit priority and the new improvements, but the AI isn't incredible. Just think of it as a bad player. If you're a good player, you'll trounce them again and again, but outright conquest is not as easy as you'd think (unless you abuse overpowered navy ships, IMO).
I play on king and Polynesia DoWed me at a bad time. I had almost no troops at all. He surrounded my capital with Maori Warriors on every square around the city, and one composite bowman plus two catapults shooting from a distance.
Strange thing was that he didn't really try to attack me. He attacked with one warrior and two of the ranged, while the rest just stood there. I focused on the ranged with my only bowman (and city defense) and with them gone after a few turns I could start pick the warriors one by one until he fled.
It was slightly dissapointing because in vanilla CiV I would have lost that capital in two turns.
Strange thing was that he didn't really try to attack me. He attacked with one warrior and two of the ranged, while the rest just stood there. I focused on the ranged with my only bowman (and city defense) and with them gone after a few turns I could start pick the warriors one by one until he fled.
It was slightly dissapointing because in vanilla CiV I would have lost that capital in two turns.
They do use airpower better now, too.
The general combat AI changes are briefly described here. It can be quite noticeable when attacking a city without all your forces in place. The AI will be far better at picking off your weakened units, forcing you to withdraw until you can muster sufficient strength to absorb their blows and still take the city. This can be particularly difficult in rough terrain.
