Has the SE evolved over time?

[mice]

Invisible: Interesting take. You argue your point well, but at least in terms of Civfanatics people still are all saying "Specialist Economy",

The term 'Farm economy' was also coined. If anything, instead of any consensus
there is more variation in the ways you can make your way through the game. I guess that's why it keeps us all interested.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

The term 'Farm economy' was also coined. If anything, instead of any consensus
there is more variation in the ways you can make your way through the game. I guess that's why it keeps us all interested.

If you named an economy after the primary source of research AND the primary source of gold which are the two things you need to plan for, you can end up with a huge number of different ways of running an economy.

Eg:

Lightbulb/Pillage economy - runs specialists to lightbulb techs and funds growth through war and pillaging.

Scientist (representation) / Bureaucracy economy - runs scientists with representation for research, has moved capital to a new site which is heavily cottaged and running bureaucracy and 100% gold on the commerce slider.

Cottage / Great Merchant economy - runs cottages with 100% science, has a great merchant farm for trade missions to cover costs.

Cottage / Shrine economy

Scientist / Merchant economy - runs specialists only and has culture slider set at 100% to run huge cities with lots of specialists.

Scientist / Trade economy - runs 100% commerce, scientist cities with wonders giving trade bonuses covering costs.

Collossus / Great Lighthouse - fast expanding economy running on an island map with all income coming from coastal tiles and trade.

And thats just a fraction of what you can do. No wonder I'm still playing after so long.

 

[cabert]

About the lightbulbing vs settling issue, I have a clear opinion. The problem is that I share it with myself only .

up to prince : settle
monarch and over : lightbulb

Why? because of the liberalism race and to a lesser degree for the trading opportunities (or lack of).
If you want to have a shot at the liberalism race at immortal level, it takes lightbulbing of at least philo and part of education. Ideally, you will lightbulb philo, paper, edu twice and liberalism. You can make it with just philo and edu twice without too much problem = an academy somewhere is possible.

OTOH, at chieftain level, you won't be able to trade for anything if you lightbulb your way to liberalism. Lightbulbing may still be an option for a super fast diplomacy victory (check the HoF gauntlets for BC diplo wins ), or if you're playing for a super early conquest or domination win. But you won't rely on trades to get more value from a scientist, so the beakers count is more on the academy or settling side even if you're playing a fast game.

 

[UncleJJ]

About the lightbulbing vs settling issue, I have a clear opinion. The problem is that I share it with myself only .

up to prince : settle
monarch and over : lightbulb

No. Your opinion is the same as mine.

I beleive all uses of GPs can be justified (in certain circumstance) and it does depend on the difficulty of the game and to some extent the map and sort of victory you are going for.

 

[amaterasu]

I like to ightbulb my GPs anyway as I can then trade my tech for anything I missed most of the time, or if its like rifling I cna make good use of getting fastest.

 

[futurehermit]

both lightbulbing and running representation are forms of the specialist economy because both rely on running specialists instead of working cottages. they are just two different versions. for example, when i am an industrious leader and run representation early, i will still lightbulb my GSs--much more powerful than settling imho, especially at higher levels.

lightbulbing does require 1/2 decent trading opportunities, although i would still bulb at lower levels, but just be required to do some more self-researching.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Yeah, the farm economy took me by surprise. It's powerful up to a point, but then it's so impossible to transition! I guess you need to switch to the serfdom civic and have like 40 workers cottaging everything??

 

[pigswill]

Something that has occured to me is that the SE/CE issue is rather complex. The complexities include leader traits, availability of civics at different stages of the game , difficulty level and victory condition.
SE is arguably a sub-species of FE (farm economy) which also includes sub-species such as Whip Economy and Draft Economy. SE itself has further subdivisions.
Running specialists is helped by having a philosophical leader while cottages benefit from a financial leader.
Running specialists is helped by civics such as representation, mercantilism, caste system and pacifism while cottage economy benefits from universal suffrage, free spech and emancipation which tend to become available later in the game.
Specialist economy is probably more useful in the early/mid game at higher levels. Lightbulbing becomes a way of keeping up tech through trading. Whipping/drafting is important in terms of keeping up power ratings.
Specialist economy seems more suited to conquest/domination type victories while cottage economy appears more suited to space victory. I don't know whether SE or CE are more suited for cultural or diplomatic victories.
I think that the debate about SE and CE and other economic models is becoming more sophisticated and the 'one size fits all' approach has been generally discarded.

 

[sugerdady87]

Why don't ppl just build all science and commerce buildings in both a CE or a SE? I see some fokes, when doing a certain econ, go to the extreme and totally aviod the commerce buildings if doing a SE econ or science buildings if doing a CE...

 

[futurehermit]

Yeah, the farm economy took me by surprise. It's powerful up to a point, but then it's so impossible to transition! I guess you need to switch to the serfdom civic and have like 40 workers cottaging everything??

who says you need to transition? if you are going for conquest/domination you don't need to transition.

also, it is possible to win space race using FE (although it is probably slower). simply prioritize biology and constitution and run many scientists under representation. you can still get a decent tech pace in the late game provided you have a large enough empire and have been farming diligently in all of your towns. a grassland farm can support a specialist post-biology, so as long as you have at least 9 grassland tiles you can support at least 10 scientists at stagnant-size 20. that's 60 beakers * modifiers and there are plenty of modifiers late game. now of course this is less than a late game cottaged city, but there are two points here 1) you can add more scientists. you can have a scientist for each grassland tile up to 20 in theory (+1 from your city +2 food): 21 * 6 = 126 beakers * modifiers, which is much more respectable (so, obviously you will want to try and run as many scientists as possible); and 2) if you have been warring extensively, which you should in a FE/SE and don't feel like transitioning you can always run specialists and gun for a space race. as long as you have the largest empire by a fair margin you should be able to outpace even financial AIs.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

About the lightbulbing vs settling issue, I have a clear opinion. The problem is that I share it with myself only .

up to prince : settle
monarch and over : lightbulb

Why? because of the liberalism race and to a lesser degree for the trading opportunities (or lack of).
If you want to have a shot at the liberalism race at immortal level, it takes lightbulbing of at least philo and part of education. Ideally, you will lightbulb philo, paper, edu twice and liberalism. You can make it with just philo and edu twice without too much problem = an academy somewhere is possible.

OTOH, at chieftain level, you won't be able to trade for anything if you lightbulb your way to liberalism. Lightbulbing may still be an option for a super fast diplomacy victory (check the HoF gauntlets for BC diplo wins ), or if you're playing for a super early conquest or domination win. But you won't rely on trades to get more value from a scientist, so the beakers count is more on the academy or settling side even if you're playing a fast game.

I have a slightly different opinion. If I can build the pyramids settle. Otherwise lightbulb.

Of course they aren't pure extremes - even if I settle most of my scientists I will still probably lightbulb one or two techs in the liberalism race to make sure I get it. As the level goes up I will probably lightbulb more just to keep in the trading game, but I'd like to settle as many great scientists as I can. If I am settling great scientists and running representation then the boost to my self research capabilities are huge - often I get more research from settled great scientists and the great library than from the active citizens in my whole empire combined.

Its not too different from your analogy because on Prince and below I am almost certainly going to get the Pyramids. On levels above Monarch I am probably going to skip the pyramids (unless I am industrious AND have stone). Monarch is the point for me where both strategies are viable - I will go for the pyramids with Industrious leaders OR if I have stone.

I do have a couple of questions for the lightbulbing experts though:

1) Does a lightbulb and trade strategy at high levels require a map with a lot of AIs on it - eg a huge pangaea map? It seems that a continents map on standard size with only 3 other AIs will limit the amount of trading you can do, especially if you plan to go early war. Its hard to see how you could have more than one good trading partner unless you were peaceful, at least until Optics.

2) After your first three or four cities and the construction of the Great Library and National Epic, what is the point in running specialists in the subsequent cities you capture? They are inferior to cottages if you aren't running representation (yes you can get them up quicker - but most cities you capture need to be whipped down anyway and can't run a high population for a while - I'd rather keep the cottages I can and add more in captured cities). And its unlikely they will ever generate Great People so they won't contribute to the lightbulbing strategy.

 

[futurehermit]

You only need to trade for certain techs, so 1-2 trade partners is more than sufficient. And in the late medeival era you encounter caravels from the other continent opening up more trading partners.

As for newly captured cities, there is divided opinion on this. Some (maybe most) will keep matured cottages and work them. Some prefer farms for enhanced whip/draft capability. Depends on what you're doing I guess. For myself, research is secondary and military is primary, so I farm new cities. You run specialists in this case not to get GSs (although you may still get 1 eventually), but just to enhance research during your research phases. Then it's back to whip/drafting for additional units.

In the higher skill levels, it is not only research that is an issue, but military production. Especially if you have a Shaka on your doorstep, or a renaissance-era Napoleon, you have to do everything in your power to get more troops or you will get steamrolled.

 

[cabert]

In the higher skill levels, it is not only research that is an issue, but military production. Especially if you have a Shaka on your doorstep, or a renaissance-era Napoleon, you have to do everything in your power to get more troops or you will get steamrolled.

so true
even on monarch, it may be a problem to be totally science focused

 

[Gryman]

Originally posted by InvisibleStalke

2) After your first three or four cities and the construction of the Great Library and National Epic, what is the point in running specialists in the subsequent cities you capture? They are inferior to cottages if you aren't running representation (yes you can get them up quicker - but most cities you capture need to be whipped down anyway and can't run a high population for a while - I'd rather keep the cottages I can and add more in captured cities). And its unlikely they will ever generate Great People so they won't contribute to the lightbulbing strategy.

By running specialists you are able to run the culture slider at higher rates without wasting your on . With a Theatre and Coliseum every 20% on the slider is worth 5 . By running specialists as opposed to working cottages you are able to control science/wealth more independently from the sliders. Not to mention higher Population means more Power, Higher Scores and the ability to Draft and Whip more efficiently.

 

[futurehermit]

By running specialists you are able to run the culture slider at higher rates without wasting your on . With a Theatre and Coliseum every 20% on the slider is worth 5 . By running specialists as opposed to working cottages you are able to control science/wealth more independently from the sliders. Not to mention higher Population means more Power, Higher Scores and the ability to Draft and Whip more efficiently.

Very, very, very well said