Hatty and Musa - How far can I push it?

[Winston Hughes]

Evening all.

I've just got a couple of questions about the personalities of Hatty and MM...

1) How likely is it that either of them will attack me if I keep relations at 'pleased' or better?

I've really been pushing my luck with the power graph, and if either one of them attacks I'm royally screwed (a couple of my cities are defended by a single warrior each, even though it's c.200ad ).

I reckon that most leaders would have eaten me up long ago, but these two always seem so nice and peaceful...

2) Given that they're 'pleased' with each other, how likely is it that MM will vassal himself to Hatty if I whip out an army and give him a stomping?

With only the three of us on the continent, and no room lefty to expand, I'm gonna need to go to war with one of them sooner or later. If there's a good chance that MM will drag Hatty into the war anyways, then I might as well just take her on from the start, and try to keep the Malians quiet with expensive gifts.

Thanks.

(oh, btw, I'm playing as Spain on Warlords/Emperor, if that makes any difference).

 

[johnny_rico]

I would try to work them against one another, hoping for a war between those two. During that war, declare your own and strike at the weakest point of your opponent.

As long as the cities with a single warrior defender are away from the front, I think that's fine. My forces are usually very concentrated, but if you're on two fronts, then you have to spread it out.

In the end, if you have the lowest power on your continent, you're a target. Better to go on the offensive and use the tactics available to you to maintain an advantage keeping them off your turf.

 

[Winston Hughes]

As long as the cities with a single warrior defender are away from the front, I think that's fine. My forces are usually very concentrated, but if you're on two fronts, then you have to spread it out.

Actually one of the single warrior cities is right on the front line... In fact, almost all of my cities are on the front line, since I'm squashed between the pair of them with horribly long borders each side.

I can't figure out a way of getting them to stop liking each other, either. They've already got different religions, but they're so damned easy going that it hasn't made much difference. Is there some other way of turning them against each other that I've not thought of?

I dare not start a war with either of them if I'm likely to get attacked from behind, so I need some surefire way of ensuring that I can keep one of them off my back.

If I can keep up in tech for a little longer then I should be able to make contact with the other continent(s), and perhaps get some kind of world war going to keep my neighbours occupied whilst I prepare my own forces. Is that likely to work? Or am I in danger of getting stomped by one or both of them in the near future?

 

[Collier20]

I am a builder. Unless I need to place troops to keep someone happy, I always keep one unit in each city. The AIs dont like to rush you. It may send a SoD at one of your cities, but it wont keep on marching on. If you empire is big enough and your cities are developed enough, losing one or two cities at the beginning of a war isnt that big of deal. In three turns you can have a decent size army to retake the city. In another three turns, you retake it. By the tenth turn you have one of his cities.

 

[Galileo44]

A warrior in a city in 200AD? I had a warrior guarding my capital in 1900AD in my emperor game the other day. just hope they don't use 2 move units!

 

[jerVL/kg]

I am a builder. Unless I need to place troops to keep someone happy, I always keep one unit in each city.

Aw, jeez...I'm a builder too, yet even I find the time to garrison at least 2-3 up to date troops in every city! (No wonder some people complain about getting invaded all the time...)

As for the OP...Hatty's one of the most peaceful civ's in the game, she's very likely to attack you in any circumstance, unless someone bribes her. Mansa also tends to be very peaceful -- I've heard stories of Mansa attacking someone out of the blue, but if you're Pleased with him, that's a lot less likely.

However, Mansa *does* like to bribe people into war when he's attacked, and he often has the tech advantage to do so -- therefore, if you attack Mansa, expect to get dogpiled by Egypt on the next turn. Mansa rarely keeps a standing army so he should fold very quickly; Egypt, on the other hand, can become quite powerful. (You did scout their lands to check on the state of their armies, right?)

As for vassals, I don't have Warlords so I can't help you there -- but according to all the Warlords SG's I've read, AI's have a habit of vassalizing themselves at the most inconvenient moments...

 

[Winston Hughes]

AI's have a habit of vassalizing themselves at the most inconvenient moments...

They do indeed, which is why I'm afraid to attack.

I've got shrine sight into most of my neighbours' cities, and neither of them have got a huge military. However, Hatty has got awesome production power, and her border cities are all well stocked with longbows, maces and cats. I could take MM quite easily if I shifted all my cities to pumping out units for a few turns, but there's no way I could handle both of them at once.

I've got astronomy now, so I could try an inter-continental campaign, inlisting my neighbours' help against the backward heathens across the sea. But I'm not sure how I'd translate that into a winning position. Any ideas?

ps. Thanks for the info

 

[Dirk1302]

I think chances of any of these 2 declaring on you are slim. Especially attacking Hatsy should be save because i think she wouldn't bribe Mansa to join and he probably would refuse since he's pleased with you. I think the other way around (attacking Mansa) is also possible but maybe somewhat less save. In 4 months of playing civ4 i had Mansa declaring on me once when i was very backward military, Hatsy never. Peace was restored with mansa after 10 turns (he seemed to be ashamed of his actions)

 

[Idiodyssey]

Manso is good people, but Hatty is a ruthless *****. She attacked my second founded city once when her borders were pressing against mine. She managed to take the city in the same turn she declared on me. Don't believe her lies.

 

[Howitzah]

In my experiences, a Pleased-Friendly Mansa Musa or Hatshepsut have never once attacked me, even with Aggressive AIs.

 

[dragomaster]

Convert to hattys state religon, after a while you will get +8 diplo bonus in brothers and sisters. plus the outher diplo bonus you got make here less likely to attack.

in one game i attacked hatty badly, rased many citys, took here shrine city and capital. after the war she was still cousius. becous of this I think when you share religon that she never whod attack you even during a bribe attempt from mansa i still think she whod refuse. + 8 is huge realy.

 

[cabert]

Dragomaster is right, if you manage to keep good relations with hatty, she won't attack you. She loves peace.

MM is of the same kind.
So it's very unlikely that you get attacked.
I have one question :
why do you want to attack?(subquestions : how many cities do you have? do you have a tech lead? what victory condition are you going for?)

 

[carl corey]

I don't think starting a war from overseas will do you any good. The AI is still incapable with regards to naval invasions. The only thing you'll achieve is for the targeted AI not to like you and also (s)he'll start building more units. Not exactly what you wanted in the first place.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I have one question :
why do you want to attack?(subquestions : how many cities do you have? do you have a tech lead? what victory condition are you going for?)

Six cities, running SE/FE with scientists and lots of whipping. Capital is two-shrine GP farm (60gpp per turn; Priests and Scientists). Globe troop-farm online soon. Lead of 3+ techs over all civs except MM, who's got Nationalism over me (I've got Astronomy over him).

Victory condition? Not sure yet.

Diplomatic might be possible, but MM managed to upset all four civs on the other continent before I met them, so I've got -4 "You traded..." penalty with them.

If I want to go Space Race then MM will have to die. His peninsula is covered with towns and villages (typical Mali); add them to my present economy and I'd have a perfect set-up for the late game tech-race. Throw in a decent navy and a friendly Hatty and I should be able to pull it off, even with the numerous mistakes I always seem to make when pursuing a space victory.

My continent is too small for Domination, so a trans-oceanic invasion would be necessary at some point. I've got a major tech lead (6-7 techs) over two of the civs on the other continent, so they could be targeted first. If I drew all of the AI civs into a worldwide conflict (my continent vs. the other), it would keep everyone occupied whilst I steamroll the first target. My fear, in this case, is that WW and maintenance costs would cripple my economy, letting one of the other civs (probably Hatty) win the space race before I can achieve domination.

So, to answer your main question, I want to attack because MM is a soft target with an awesome economy, and, whichever victory I go for, his territory would be most helpful. The problem, of course, is Hatty. Would she be less likely to take MM as a vassal if she was involved in a war elsewhere?

dragomaster: Good advice, but unfortunately I don't have Hatty's religion in any of my cities (MM doesn't either, thankfully). At the moment I'm struggling to keep her pleased without going free religion, so if I declared on MM I'd have to make the switch.

Edit: Carl - You're right; the AI is woefully inadequate where such invasions are concerned; but that wouldn't really be the point. Keeping them occupied, building diplomatic relations, and reducing the chances of my getting dogpiled would be the real reasons for bringing them into the war.

 

[carl corey]

In that case, try to bribe Hatty to go to war with someone on the other continent rather than the other way around (bribing that AI to go to war with Hatty). You will still get to keep her as an ally. And if you have Astronomy and can get Chemistry soon you shouldn't be concerned you get invaded anyway, right?

One question: does MM have horses? If yes, beware of cavalry as Military Tradition is one tech away from Nationalism.

 

[cabert]

^^bribing hatty into war is impossible
It just never works.

 

[Winston Hughes]

bribing hatty into war is impossible
It just never works.

Damn. That was probably my best hope.

What if I bribed one or two of the AIs on the other continent to attack MM when I've taken a couple of cities from him? Would that discourage Hatty from taking him as a vassal?

Or is there some way of predicting when he's likely to offer himself to Hatty as a vassal? If I could safely pick off his two border cities, then I could declare peace and try to take the remaining three blitzkrieg-style in a subsequent war. In that case, and if Hatty did take him as a vassal before he died, I could probably get my armies back to the Egyptian border before she could cause any serious trouble.

carl: I'm not worried about being invaded anymore, except in the situation I described above. I've prepped my cities to swiftly whip out an offensive army, so any invader would get a nasty shock. The moment of danger would come if I whipped the army, attacked MM, and then found Hatty coming in through the back door, with all of my cities still recovering from the whipping and my armies deep in Malian territory.

Thankfully, MM doesn't have horses, as he lost his only supply to my capital's immense culture before he had time to build any units with it. He's been pestering me to trade it back to him (for fish) ever since...

 

[carl corey]

Well then, can't YOU go for Cavalry? They're mobile enough so that if you get attacked you can back out of a front and get them to the other. Hatty shouldn't be a problem against your Cavalry, right? The time it takes her to get to Riflemen you'd be safely in possession of MM's land.

And while bribing others to go to war with MM could make Hatty reluctant to take him as a vassal, she might not be so reluctant to get bribed herself by MM to go against you. Although I'm not sure how the AI determines who's the "bigger threat" in this case, so whether MM would ask her to fight you or someone else I have no idea.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Well then, can't YOU go for Cavalry? They're mobile enough so that if you get attacked you can back out of a front and get them to the other. Hatty shouldn't be a problem against your Cavalry, right? The time it takes her to get to Riflemen you'd be safely in possession of MM's land.

I hadn't thought of that... It would mean putting the war off for a while longer, since I don't have Gunpowder yet. But I should have no trouble getting Cavalry online before Hatty gets rifles. I might just give that a try...

On a side note, it's just occurred to me that MM has pulled off a highly effective Optics beeline. He was lagging behind in tech, but wouldn't trade away Compass or Optics to me or Hatty. Next thing I know he's picking up new techs every two or three turns, trading himself into the lead. I only managed to catch by rushing to Optics myself, and then trading my way into position for a liberalism slingshot.

 

[carl corey]

Glad to be helpful. Actually, this follows my Great Generals game in which I was blinded by Churchill's protective Redcoats and didn't realize that I can get to Cavalry much earlier. futurehermit pointed it out to me.