Hatty - Monarch Cookbook Mark II (IC concurrent)

[Gumbolt]

@ Gumbolt:

Spoiler :

I read your post, thanks for the feedback. Was there anything i did that was correct?

Spoiler :

I see you as a builder. I look at Ulundi and you have nearly every building there. Market, temple, monst. You at times perhaps need to look at the tiles in a city and picture what the city will become.

You got the academy in Thebes that was good.

Your second city you built was memphis. Apart from the corn and copper what was this city ever going to provide. It is working 4 unimproved tiles. Your second city should of been one of the most improved cities you had.

Same for Heliopolis. It is already encroaching 2 of your cities and will long term not be a great city. You need to grab the key sites first. You look at other saves that built no blockers around Timbuktu and they seemed to block JC just as well.

Pr Ramesses long term will all those resources will be a nice commerce site.

When you build a new city you should have a worker ready to move in and start working the key resources. With so much jungle and forest this map needed a heavy worker base. I think as you had rushed Mansa it left everyone thinking where do I place new cities.

If you look at all your cities. You have 9 cities producing 4 or less science beakers each a turn. For new cities fair enough but this is why you are struggling on science. Normally the capital could be churning 60-70 science beakers early on.

I don't think Ulundi was working both it's gold.

I did some mm on your save and if you run wealth in Ulundi and Thebes you can raise science slider 20% and get science at 90 beakers a turn. As and when Tibuktu grows past 6-7 it can work the gold and cottages. Ulundi has to work the gold and production tiles. I figure with civil service and bur civic you would soon hit 129 beakers a turn at 60% science. A few tweaks to cities and some growth too maybe 150+ science. Do grow Timbuktu and stop building that settler!!

You have a lot of structure and lots of cities in place you just need to start making use of them. Don't be afraid to use wealth more to push science.

I think 10 cities for 400ad is quite good really. As stated before you wanted the Marble and silver city instead of memphis and heliopolis.

I do see potential in your save but I think due to the slow tech side it will get over looked.

Okay I have played with your save. Only editing cities and using wealth.Your science is at 50% and 101 beakers a turn. That is a 3 fold rise from 34 beakers a turn you posted.

I would love to see people play from this save to see what it could do.

Look at Fezzik save Timbuktu is size 16!!!!

 

[Gumbolt]

Here's my report. This went much better than expected.

Spoiler :

Highlights:
10 Cities (including Pop 16 Thebes, Pop 13 Timbuktu, Pop 11 Anasazi)
3rd GS just popped, GP farm started
145 beakers at break even (256 @ 100%)
Built Oracle, Parthenon, and building TGL
Strong score (1385 vs 920 Cathy) and tech lead
HRE choked and JC blocked

Demographics - City Advisor - Techs
View attachment 261904View attachment 261905View attachment 261906
Northern Empire - Southern Empire
View attachment 261907View attachment 261908
HRE Empire
View attachment 261909
Thebes - Timbuktu - Anasazi (top 3 cities)
View attachment 261911View attachment 261912View attachment 261917

Around Turn 120:
Captured Cherokee and Anasazi
Began choke of HRE (Using 3 WC, destroyed both copper, blocked workers from both sides)
Built The Oracle (Discovered CoL, founded Confuscianism)
Discovered Aesthetics

Around Turn 130:
Discovered Sailing
Built Courthouses in Ulundi and Timbuktu

Around Turn 140-150:
Discovered Monarchy
Adopted Hereditary Rule and began spamming warriors to grow happy caps
Founded Memphis and Heliopolis (JC blocker)
Ended HRE choke (due to his trade for Iron - Swordsman, Spearman)

Around Turn 160-170:
Discovered Iron Working
Traded for Alphabet and backfilled
Began building research and researching Currency with a crashed economy
Captured barb city Visigoth
Razed barb city Teoihuacan
Spammed Confuscian missionaries to JC planning to give him some enemies when he converts

Around Turn 185-190:
Built Parthenon
Founded Elephantine (GP farm)

Around Turn 190-195:
Discovered Currency, Literature
Began building wealth and continued building research

Turn 200:
Popped 3rd GS
Began building TGL

Few thoughts.

Spoiler :

Your spoiler pictures are mis leading as you are running science at 100% and running a huge loss per turn. Your balanced out science is reasonable.

I love fact Thebes is size 15. You have 4 forest to chop for great Lib! I Don't see Thebes as a GP farm/capital.

Timbuktu is size 16. Great!! (Thats size 16 Stevoh!!!) I would of liked to see more cottages on the flood plains there. Slight shame.

Ulundi seems to be set up for production. No idea why you built Parthernon. Hardly a specialist economy.

You need to get HE set up in Ulundi and mayeb NE built somewhere.

Anaz- Size 11 city looking good. Once the 3x dye are worked this will be a nice commerce city.

Overall you have 4-5 good working cities but you have fallen behind tech wise compared to others. With civil service this save would look much more appealing. You could of bulbed philosphy to make it look better.

3 great people by 400ad is not bad. Parth helped this. Nice to see a save with a city running 4 scientists. I do wonder if the capital should go to Timbuktu and Thebes become a GP farm. In that case you might farm the fp.

No silver city to date. Might of save a warrior here or there. Nice to see you used some warriors for happiness. Cheap builds!

 

[Fezzik]

@Gumbolt Thanks for the helpful feedback

Spoiler :

I love fact Thebes is size 15. You have 4 forest to chop for great Lib! I Don't see Thebes as a GP farm/capital.

Timbuktu is size 16. Great!! (Thats size 16 Stevoh!!!) I would of liked to see more cottages on the flood plains there. Slight shame.

Ulundi seems to be set up for production. No idea why you built Parthernon. Hardly a specialist economy.

You need to get HE set up in Ulundi and mayeb NE built somewhere.

I had Timbuktu in mind as a production powerhouse. That's the reason for the farms. I also settled a GG. I figured might as well pump the units out right next to JC. Thebes is a bureaucracy capital so far, though I understand it could have been a GP farm. I just hate working all those cottages and then turning it into a GP farm instead.

Anaz- Size 11 city looking good. Once the 3x dye are worked this will be a nice commerce city.

Overall you have 4-5 good working cities but you have fallen behind tech wise compared to others. With civil service this save would look much more appealing. You could of bulbed philosphy to make it look better.

Yeah, Calendar is a little late to the party. The commerce (and happiness) from that will change things considerably. As will bureaucracy.

3 great people by 400ad is not bad. Parth helped this. Nice to see a save with a city running 4 scientists. I do wonder if the capital should go to Timbuktu and Thebes become a GP farm. In that case you might farm the fp.

I'm really not great at knowing what to make for a GP farm on a map like this. I started one in Elephantine, but I have no idea if that was smart. It's got 2 food resources and a bunch of grassland farms next to a winding river, so more riverside tiles.

No silver city to date. Might of save a warrior here or there. Nice to see you used some warriors for happiness. Cheap builds!

Yeah, I discovered if you never tech Hunting you get to keep building warriors after Copper Never realized that.

 

[i_imperator]

Thanks Gumbolt, great advice! I'll have a look at the save now.

 

[vranasm]

shadow run, not intended for voting. Might be interesting especially for you Cenan

Spoiler :

This run was about Mids and their usefulness.
I admit I built less workers then last time and is for sure to be seen on the map... with that I am VERY discontent!

Techs went really really slow...most time I was at 0% slider... because Alphabet by AIs came even later then before! i start to think that best approach actually is to selftech Alpha at this map. i had to selftech except for monarchy and Alpha everything important... you name it... IW, math, calendar, currency (I got to it around 100AD!!)

But I think this save a bit shines... 270 sustainable bpt (-16 gold with that reserve is certainly sustainable) is just "wow"! And some cities still can grow, Great Library in cap in 6turns!
I dont have academy built (since first GS was settled in thinking that I am going spec econ so I surely should have a lot of GPs!) and produced only 1 GS though... I still bog there something...

I did allow myself cottages only in capital, everywhere else it's farms, some sites would get eventually watermills+workshops after I would tech them. Dye, spices, silk are good commerce resources though so they help a lot.

Btw just for luls at turn 198 I went to every damn city and maxed scientists (pulled all people from tiles in every city) meaning every city shrinks in 2 turns... Next turn I was in strike, but I managed to get the CS at T199 as with cottages (I almost lost hope with the damn AIs dont teching alpha!). Just for interrest...I got in that 1 turn around 500bpt :-D.

 

[Fezzik]

@Siran

Spoiler :

I'm curios how trading for Alphabet works for the others. All the other civilizations had no Alphabet when I got there. I micromanaged Alphabet and the Oracle to death, always afraid I wouldn't get Alphabet before the Oracle was built or somebody else would build it...
Whipped the Oracle in the end and got Currency the turn I research Alphabet.

That was actually the biggest problem I had. The AI took *forever* to get Alphabet so I couldn't take Currency from The Oracle (I took CoL), couldn't build Research or Wealth and my economy crashed. I should have just gone through Math, but I took Aesthetics too early I guess (still learning). I guess I underestimate the value of Math as much as I had Currency until recently. By the time I got Alphabet I was just scraping by long enough to get Currency. Which is why my research was stunted, though it is making up time now. I eventually got Math by trade.

 

[Gumbolt]

shadow run, not intended for voting. Might be interesting especially for you Cenan

Spoiler :

This run was about Mids and their usefulness.
I admit I built less workers then last time and is for sure to be seen on the map... with that I am VERY discontent!

Techs went really really slow...most time I was at 0% slider... because Alphabet by AIs came even later then before! i start to think that best approach actually is to selftech Alpha at this map. i had to selftech except for monarchy and Alpha everything important... you name it... IW, math, calendar, currency (I got to it around 100AD!!)

But I think this save a bit shines... 270 sustainable bpt (-16 gold with that reserve is certainly sustainable) is just "wow"! And some cities still can grow, Great Library in cap in 6turns!
I dont have academy built (since first GS was settled in thinking that I am going spec econ so I surely should have a lot of GPs!) and produced only 1 GS though... I still bog there something...

I did allow myself cottages only in capital, everywhere else it's farms, some sites would get eventually watermills+workshops after I would tech them. Dye, spices, silk are good commerce resources though so they help a lot.

Btw just for luls at turn 198 I went to every damn city and maxed scientists (pulled all people from tiles in every city) meaning every city shrinks in 2 turns... Next turn I was in strike, but I managed to get the CS at T199 as with cottages (I almost lost hope with the damn AIs dont teching alpha!). Just for interrest...I got in that 1 turn around 500bpt :-D.

Spoiler :

Now this is more like it. Someone using the GP farm i suggested. Mids is always a nice kicker when running specialists.

Shame you are not building NE yet.

You could of easily built SW wonder to get pacifsm. I would of bulbed philosphy too.

You could of traded resources for gold. Cathy has 5 gold for trade.

My only quibble is you have built virtually no military. If HRE or anyone attacks you are in trouble. Always keep an eye on the AI.

If you wanted to go for a specialist/commerce economy you could of just irrigated Thebes completely. At size 14+ it could of ran 6-8 scientists.

 

[Fezzik]

@vranasm

Spoiler :

shadow run, not intended for voting. Might be interesting especially for you Cenan

But I think this save a bit shines... 270 sustainable bpt (-16 gold with that reserve is certainly sustainable) is just "wow"! And some cities still can grow, Great Library in cap in 6turns!

270 bpt is very impressive

That is a great spot for a GP farm. Hidden right in front of our eyes. Good suggestion Gumbolt!

 

[vranasm]

Spoiler :

Now this is more like it. Someone using the GP farm i suggested. Mids is always a nice kicker when running specialists.

Shame you are not building NE yet.

You could of easily built SW wonder to get pacifsm. I would of bulbed philosphy too.

You could of traded resources for gold. Cathy has 5 gold for trade.

My only quibble is you have built virtually no military. If HRE or anyone attacks you are in trouble. Always keep an eye on the AI.

If you wanted to go for a specialist/commerce economy you could of just irrigated Thebes completely.

Spoiler :

yeah that military thingy...always buggers me... i think there will be war between charle and cathy in this game if i ever try it after we finish... Charle wanted me as buddh buddy, I accepted and then after like 10 turns i abandoned religion...for safety reasons. but war is inevitable eventually...

I read some SE guides few months ago and almost all of them use 1 city as commerce cottage site and usually it's capital... so that's why i allowed myself cottages in cap... bureau + growing cottages will give enough money
Actually at first I strongly thought about that middle cities with a lot of river (dye+silk city) for cottages...but I bited the bullet and went with farms...just to prove myself something...

That resource trade is actually great advice...I always forget it... I manage to trade resources like 1 in 10 games... usually when I dont forget...they have nothing to shop.

For NE wasnt time actually (the same SW)... I settled your GP farm (when you made it so obvious how great spot it is...it was no reason to not use it, even if it's a bit map cheating) decently too late and the marble is hooked like for 20 turns too. I am almost impressed both cities are this big actually.

I didnt have enough scientists... the only one came too soon (and I think choosing settling was better because I almost all 100 turns was at 0% slider) and no other I got. But with this bpt i think selfteching philo has a lot of sense...there is no hurry. As i wrote you in PM...i still make something wrong there with GPPs... I am affraid I have a lot of cities at 100/150 gp points...

 

[vranasm]

@Siran

Spoiler :

That was actually the biggest problem I had. The AI took *forever* to get Alphabet so I couldn't take Currency from The Oracle (I took CoL), couldn't build Research or Wealth and my economy crashed. I should have just gone through Math, but I took Aesthetics too early I guess (still learning). I guess I underestimate the value of Math as much as I had Currency until recently. By the time I got Alphabet I was just scraping by long enough to get Currency. Which is why my research was stunted, though it is making up time now. I eventually got Math by trade.

Spoiler :

I find the slow AIs this game with Alpha pretty untypical for monarch game. Usually when I finish teching Aesth there soon is someone with Alpha.
I think killing off Mansa backfired big time... but hey...we have great land instead!

 

[Cenan]

shadow run, not intended for voting. Might be interesting especially for you Cenan

Spoiler :

This run was about Mids and their usefulness.
I admit I built less workers then last time and is for sure to be seen on the map... with that I am VERY discontent!

Techs went really really slow...most time I was at 0% slider... because Alphabet by AIs came even later then before! i start to think that best approach actually is to selftech Alpha at this map. i had to selftech except for monarchy and Alpha everything important... you name it... IW, math, calendar, currency (I got to it around 100AD!!)

But I think this save a bit shines... 270 sustainable bpt (-16 gold with that reserve is certainly sustainable) is just "wow"! And some cities still can grow, Great Library in cap in 6turns!
I dont have academy built (since first GS was settled in thinking that I am going spec econ so I surely should have a lot of GPs!) and produced only 1 GS though... I still bog there something...

I did allow myself cottages only in capital, everywhere else it's farms, some sites would get eventually watermills+workshops after I would tech them. Dye, spices, silk are good commerce resources though so they help a lot.

Btw just for luls at turn 198 I went to every damn city and maxed scientists (pulled all people from tiles in every city) meaning every city shrinks in 2 turns... Next turn I was in strike, but I managed to get the CS at T199 as with cottages (I almost lost hope with the damn AIs dont teching alpha!). Just for interrest...I got in that 1 turn around 500bpt :-D.

Spoiler :

Very nice, I'll look over the save in the morning i think. I'm sure i could pick up a
few useful tricks.
About popping GPs. If you load up the original save for this round and put up
2 scientists in Thebes, once you have a lib in Timbuktu too, you can run the specs
1 turn apart, to minimize the number of turns you'd have to wait for the next GS
pop, which would be out of Timbuktu.
So, once there's a lib in Timbuktu, put up 2 scientists in Thebes, hit end turn, then
put up two more in Timbuktu. That way Timbuktu will always be 6 GPP behind
Thebes. Once Thebes pops a GS, Timbuktu will have a half full bar of GPP to go on.

 

[Cenan]

@Siran

Spoiler :

That was actually the biggest problem I had. The AI took *forever* to get Alphabet so I couldn't take Currency from The Oracle (I took CoL), couldn't build Research or Wealth and my economy crashed. I should have just gone through Math, but I took Aesthetics too early I guess (still learning). I guess I underestimate the value of Math as much as I had Currency until recently. By the time I got Alphabet I was just scraping by long enough to get Currency. Which is why my research was stunted, though it is making up time now. I eventually got Math by trade.

Spoiler :

I guess the AI must have something weird on their peice of land requiring them to
tech something other than Alpha. I was stunned when Cathy was first to Alpha in
35AD or something ridiculous like that in my own game.
I guess it depends on wether the AI sees a need to build research or use spies?
It also kinda surprised me how well Charle is teching, with that tiny bit of land he
has.

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler :

I guess the AI must have something weird on their peice of land requiring them to
tech something other than Alpha. I was stunned when Cathy was first to Alpha in
35AD or something ridiculous like that in my own game.
I guess it depends on wether the AI sees a need to build research or use spies?
It also kinda surprised me how well Charle is teching, with that tiny bit of land he
has.

Spoiler :

Remember this is monarch. You rushed 2 AI. There are no financial AI left. Overall this game will be a rush to rifles or curs and a quick finish of the rather backward AI.

 

[vranasm]

Spoiler :

I guess the AI must have something weird on their peice of land requiring them to
tech something other than Alpha. I was stunned when Cathy was first to Alpha in
35AD or something ridiculous like that in my own game.
I guess it depends on wether the AI sees a need to build research or use spies?
It also kinda surprised me how well Charle is teching, with that tiny bit of land he
has.

smaller empires are often in the early part of the game very competitive... you dont pay big maintenance and it takes time for the bigger ones to grow on commerce and especially get the right techs that help skyrocket the research.
(I think it's spoiler free so I wont spoiler it).

With the GPP description you a bit confused me... I will maybe need explanation what you really mean with it. I thought that every city has its GPP pool so if you work scientists in city A and city B each city fills their GPP pool, the only thing that is common is the amount for next GP that raises each time GP is produced. What does it mean is that when you have dedicated GP farm with enough GPP every other city fills its GPP pool but never produces GP because the GPP request is steep (and that's why is not recommended to run scientists in lot cities because if their not rep they produce a bit inferior (after cottage growth) science).
I had games where I had 2 GP farms which both produced GPs and never had to do the shaking you describe (or I didnt understand something from your description)

 

[vranasm]

Spoiler :

Remember this is monarch. You rushed 2 AI. There are no financial AI left. Overall this game will be a rush to rifles or curs and a quick finish of the rather backward AI.

Spoiler :

I usually wait for cavalry rush, since cavalries against LBs are really overpowered. But I can see cuirs rush with spies working.

I actually think that maces+trebs war could work for us next round. But it would need some other tech approach then the usual lib race... I think the lib race could be won even if we diverse a bit techs for machinery+eng first.

 

[Cenan]

smaller empires are often in the early part of the game very competitive... you dont pay big maintenance and it takes time for the bigger ones to grow on commerce and especially get the right techs that help skyrocket the research.
(I think it's spoiler free so I wont spoiler it).

With the GPP description you a bit confused me... I will maybe need explanation what you really mean with it. I thought that every city has its GPP pool so if you work scientists in city A and city B each city fills their GPP pool, the only thing that is common is the amount for next GP that raises each time GP is produced. What does it mean is that when you have dedicated GP farm with enough GPP every other city fills its GPP pool but never produces GP because the GPP request is steep (and that's why is not recommended to run scientists in lot cities because if their not rep they produce a bit inferior (after cottage growth) science).
I had games where I had 2 GP farms which both produced GPs and never had to do the shaking you describe (or I didnt understand something from your description)

The GPP produced in each city is of course local to that city. But the amount
needed for a new GP is global for your empire. Once a city produces a GP, it's
pool is reset.
To minimize the number of turns you wait after one GP is born, you want to have
another city with as many GPP in its pool as possible when the GP is born.

I'll try with an example. Say you have two cities, A and B. They both have a library,
but nothing else. Your empire has not produced a GP yet. You will need 100 GPP
to produce a GP.
What you want to do is put up 2 scientists in, lets say A, and only 1 in B.
Next turn A will have 6 GPP, and B will have 3. Now you put up another scientist in
city B. This effectively means that city B will be 3 points behind city A in producing
a Great Person.
So, once city A reaches 102 GPP (6*17), city B will be at 99 GPP (6*17-3). The GP is born and the
pool in city A is reset. For the next GP you will need 200 GPP, but city B already has
a half full pool.
I'm not totally sure what happens if both cities hit 100 GPP on the same turn, that's
why i stagger them 1 turn. Its nice to know where your next GP is going to come
from, if for instance you have something better city A could be doing once the GP
is born.

 

[Gumbolt]

The GPP produced in each city is of course local to that city. But the amount
needed for a new GP is global for your empire. Once a city produces a GP, it's
pool is reset.
To minimize the number of turns you wait after one GP is born, you want to have
another city with as many GPP in its pool as possible when the GP is born.

I'll try with an example. Say you have two cities, A and B. They both have a library,
but nothing else. Your empire has not produced a GP yet. You will need 100 GPP
to produce a GP.
What you want to do is put up 2 scientists in, lets say A, and only 1 in B.
Next turn A will have 6 GPP, and B will have 3. Now you put up another scientist in
city B. This effectively means that city B will be 3 points behind city A in producing
a Great Person.
So, once city A reaches 102 GPP (6*17), city B will be at 99 GPP (6*17-3). The GP is born and the
pool in city A is reset. For the next GP you will need 200 GPP, but city B already has
a half full pool.
I'm not totally sure what happens if both cities hit 100 GPP on the same turn, that's
why i stagger them 1 turn. Its nice to know where your next GP is going to come
from, if for instance you have something better city A could be doing once the GP
is born.

Cenan is right. All cities can produce great people point. I always tweak my cities to ensure that the smaller GP farm gets a great person before the main one. On my shadow IC game I had Thebes and Elephantine produce great people.

 

[Cenan]

Spoiler :

I usually wait for cavalry rush, since cavalries against LBs are really overpowered. But I can see cuirs rush with spies working.

I actually think that maces+trebs war could work for us next round. But it would need some other tech approach then the usual lib race... I think the lib race could be won even if we diverse a bit techs for machinery+eng first.

Spoiler :

I don't see the need for trebs really. Cats are cheap and serve the purpose nicely.
I like the idea of using spies too, but we'd need to start generating some
serious , since taking down the walls is an expensive mission.
Also, I can't recall which of the AIs was willing to trade ivory, but I'm sure i saw
it. Cats+Eles+Axes could be all we needed

 

[vranasm]

ehm I think we all wrote the same thing . I just wasnt sure yesterday evening what was really written ;-).

Spoiler :

We have a lot of courthouses...that should suffice when we wait till cav/cuir war.

if we wanted cats+axes war the save should be really already prepared since the timeframe closes usually around 600-700AD.

in the era of longbows you need trebuchets, since they get 2x city bonus making them strength 8 and more important they have bigger bonus in bombarding.

 

[Gumbolt]

ehm I think we all wrote the same thing . I just wasnt sure yesterday evening what was really written ;-).

Spoiler :

We have a lot of courthouses...that should suffice when we wait till cav/cuir war.

if we wanted cats+axes war the save should be really already prepared since the timeframe closes usually around 600-700AD.

in the era of longbows you need trebuchets, since they get 2x city bonus making them strength 8 and more important they have bigger bonus in bombarding.

Spoiler :

I would just spam curs without trebs and over run the backwards AI. mace trebs would work. Knock out mansa and the rest should be pretty backwards.

There has been a lot of good play here. I was shocked no one to date took the 6 chariots and took out HRE capital. I don't think I built a single WC for that.

Just a thought do you think this game would be better run at Emperor and also then a IC game? Or perhaps have the Monarch game use weaker leaders or weaker starts? I don't think you will learn much from 400ad onwards. tech to military techs and build an army.