Hatty - Monarch Cookbook Mark II (IC concurrent)

[vranasm]

Just a thought do you think this game would be better run at Emperor and also then a IC game? Or perhaps have the Monarch game use weaker leaders or weaker starts? I don't think you will learn much from 400ad onwards. tech to military techs and build an army.

I am not sure about it (and I already thought about it yesterday with the influx of good saves over the last few days...). This game went incredibly easy, but the map was very favourable to rush and we got some really easy commerce (gold shaka, silver nw, a lot of happy laying around, marble) and favorable land (really a lot of riverside), I saw in past few months a lot worse situations - isolation, bad land (plains), that are things we should try first.

I see here very good saves which from we should have easy time to actually win (AIs are already backwards, tech rate is pretty good, good techs packed home), so I agree the next round will be probably about building up (some could maybe with a lot of effort - depending on winning save, win already) and then it's "easy" mop-up.

I like the discretion of those 2 games, since there is 1 diff inbetween making room for noble+prince players (originally) to move up.
But seriously think some of the people here should be more in EC games already and some are very close to it, since we vote for best save, it's possible some people could surprise themself that they can compete on Emperor...

 

[Gumbolt]

I am not sure about it (and I already thought about it yesterday with the influx of good saves over the last few days...). This game went incredibly easy, but the map was very favourable to rush and we got some really easy commerce (gold shaka, silver nw, a lot of happy laying around, marble) and favorable land (really a lot of riverside), I saw in past few months a lot worse situations - isolation, bad land (plains), that are things we should try first.

I see here very good saves which from we should have easy time to actually win (AIs are already backwards, tech rate is pretty good, good techs packed home), so I agree the next round will be probably about building up (some could maybe with a lot of effort - depending on winning save, win already) and then it's "easy" mop-up.

I like the discretion of those 2 games, since there is 1 diff inbetween making room for noble+prince players (originally) to move up.
But seriously think some of the people here should be more in EC games already and some are very close to it, since we vote for best save, it's possible some people could surprise themself that they can compete on Emperor...

Well after round one it is effectively down one level. One option is for Kossin to remove more resources from Monarch game to raise the challenge. I do think a lot of you could be on Emperor. There are some who maybe need more time on this level.

I must i don't approve of having starts where the obvious option is to rush. Then again with WC most people will always choose that option. Mansa as closest neighbour would of been interesting. Gives time for Shaka to get his UU.

 

[Trynthlas]

Spoiler :

I would just spam curs without trebs and over run the backwards AI. mace trebs would work. Knock out mansa and the rest should be pretty backwards.

There has been a lot of good play here. I was shocked no one to date took the 6 chariots and took out HRE capital. I don't think I built a single WC for that.

Just a thought do you think this game would be better run at Emperor and also then a IC game? Or perhaps have the Monarch game use weaker leaders or weaker starts? I don't think you will learn much from 400ad onwards. tech to military techs and build an army.

Spoiler :

Just for grins, I played to see what would happen from the 1500BC save if I went after HRE capitol with the chariots available. He had 2 archers in there and whipped a spear and another archer in the 2 turns it took me to get from the borders to the other side of the river. No good.

 

[Cenan]

@gumbolt

What's to be learned from 400AD onwards depends on where the individual player
starts trailing off / loosing advantage. This game might be in the bag for 90% of the
players following this thread.
For myself, I've only won 1 monarch game on my own, and that's after this thread
started. Despite having started countless games.
Emperor scares meh

 

[Gumbolt]

@gumbolt

What's to be learned from 400AD onwards depends on where the individual player
starts trailing off / loosing advantage. This game might be in the bag for 90% of the
players following this thread.
For myself, I've only won 1 monarch game on my own, and that's after this thread
started. Despite having started countless games.
Emperor scares meh

I think you would of learned more from a game where you didn't rush 2 AI. I would even consider a rule making a peaceful game to 1ad. For next cookbook. I will suggest it to lymond and Kossin. Hopefully they will read this. lol

 

[shyuhe]

I think you would of learned more from a game where you didn't rush 2 AI. I would even consider a rule making a peaceful game to 1ad. For next cookbook. I will suggest it to lymond and Kossin. Hopefully they will read this. lol

This map was clearly designed to encourage a player to rush. The challenge is more of how you recover after picking up those extra cities and push your early land lead to a game lead. And it looks like many players are doing great in that department.

 

[Gumbolt]

This map was clearly designed to encourage a player to rush. The challenge is more of how you recover after picking up those extra cities and push your early land lead to a game lead. And it looks like many players are doing great in that department.

Hardly a challenge on monarch as you can happily still build 5-6 cities and keep taxes at 20%. In fact most were held back by a rather slow teching AI. I think making Shaka a neighbour left no real choice but to rush. Shaka only knows how to spam units.

On immortal level when you reach 4 cities you are close to 0%-10% science rate.

 

[vranasm]

@gumbolt

that's a bit mean from you considering some people played their 1st/2nd monarch game (not me ofc).
This round was challenging (bigger challenge were those horrendous AIs and their tech rate i admit), but saying it was hardly challenging is just mean.

 

[Gumbolt]

@gumbolt

that's a bit mean from you considering some people played their 1st/2nd monarch game (not me ofc).
This round was challenging (bigger challenge were those horrendous AIs and their tech rate i admit), but saying it was hardly challenging is just mean.

You are right. I went a bit too far. Perhaps I should stick to the immortal thread. *runs*

 

[cripp7]

You are right. I went a bit too far. Perhaps I should stick to the immortal thread. *runs*

Remember us less experienced players need constructive criticism We all do appreciate your input and thoughts on the games, at least I do but keep it coming!!

 

[Aldor]

You are right. I went a bit too far. Perhaps I should stick to the immortal thread. *runs*

Nah its fine I enjoy reading all your helpful hints. And really the map is quite easy, with a lot of good city spots. The biggest challenges (for me) are to not forget the military buildup, and certainly to decide IF and WHEN to attack a next target. Most of the players here seem to favor military "solutions"...but when I start my own games I usually try and go for space or diplo or culture. In the monarch games I tried so far, it usually goes so that I keep up (or even play ahead) of the AI until about midgame, then eventually fall behind in military power. Because I often cannot decide when or who to attack (or if I should attack at all). Then it becomes a hard struggle against some super power AI in the end.

This game here may be easier (maybe even decided at the 400AD point) but its certainly not the usual way for me

 

[Gumbolt]

Nah its fine I enjoy reading all your helpful hints. And really the map is quite easy, with a lot of good city spots. The biggest challenges (for me) are to not forget the military buildup, and certainly to decide IF and WHEN to attack a next target. Most of the players here seem to favor military "solutions"...but when I start my own games I usually try and go for space or diplo or culture. In the monarch games I tried so far, it usually goes so that I keep up (or even play ahead) of the AI until about midgame, then eventually fall behind in military power. Because I often cannot decide when or who to attack (or if I should attack at all). Then it becomes a hard struggle against some super power AI in the end.

This game here may be easier (maybe even decided at the 400AD point) but its certainly not the usual way for me

I think at times a military approach is needed at higher levels. For me you need space for a good solids 6-7 cities. On monarch you should be able to reach rifles or curs early and take home the military advantage. That is also true on emperor for. I can often rush Ai with Rifles while perhaps they still have longbow.

Do take a look at the IC cookbook saves too to see how we cope. Even when behind in techs you can trade your way out of trouble.

 

[kossin]

I think you would of learned more from a game where you didn't rush 2 AI. I would even consider a rule making a peaceful game to 1ad. For next cookbook. I will suggest it to lymond and Kossin. Hopefully they will read this. lol

I don't think rules are necessary. I could easily have removed the horses, given Shaka river copper and hill capital and there would have been little or no rushes.

The intent was to learn economic recovery - rushing is a tool you can use up to Immortal consistently but you need to recover afterwards.

Next game will have a different goal for certain

 

[vranasm]

I don't think rules are necessary. I could easily have removed the horses, given Shaka river copper and hill capital and there would have been little or no rushes.

The intent was to learn economic recovery - rushing is a tool you can use up to Immortal consistently but you need to recover afterwards.

Next game will have a different goal for certain

looking for it... was disappointed with reviewing 12 variants of rush

@gumbolt I didnt want to be too harsh... but i think a lot of people forget too much too soon... remember everyone here was surprised even at prince when they first striked out...

 

[lymond]

Given the move of EC to IC, I suggested a Monarch duplicate as I think it is a more "attainable" reach for less experienced players looking to move up. This Hatty game was designed for the early rush on IMM level, so this probably made rushing even easier on Monarch. (Although if you look at Grashopa's shadow IC game you can see that a rush on this level can be easy for the great players).

Personally, I did not like the Trynthlas save for the purposes of the MC - it is a good round none the less. Mansa serves multiple good purposes in this game early-mid game, as he did for me on my IC game, unless, of course, you are strictly going for a complete wipe out like GBs shadow MC game. I've always liked the strategic early war - buildup - late war aspect of the game.

There are players here that indeed should find success on Emperor level. However, I don't think that warrants not having an MC. If you can beat Emperor there is no reason why you cannot "attempt" the IC - just like successful Noble/Prince players should have no reason not to attempt the MC. There are still many folks who would benefit from a MC level game as I've witnessed from at least half or more of the players in the current MC.

Sorry, where was GB harsh? I missed that somewhere.

Anywho, keep the saves and discussions coming.....

 

[Fezzik]

Even though I play on Emperor (and lose) because of the challenge, I liked having the MC because it gives me some room to see what I did right and where I need improvement. This went a little too easy and I would have preferred a save that didn't take out Mansa, but this round was still a good challenge at mastering the mid-game economic recovery. Even though it was pretty hard to screw up enough to lose, there were still better and worse ways to go about it. I learned a few things, personally.

It's also nice having the 2 levels of cookbooks because it encourages more involvement in the MC to know that those who have mastered Monarch and Emperor are over in the IC and this one can move at a different pace as far as learning.

 

[Gumbolt]

Even though I play on Emperor (and lose) because of the challenge, I liked having the MC because it gives me some room to see what I did right and where I need improvement. This went a little too easy and I would have preferred a save that didn't take out Mansa, but this round was still a good challenge at mastering the mid-game economic recovery. Even though it was pretty hard to screw up enough to lose, there were still better and worse ways to go about it. I learned a few things, personally.

It's also nice having the 2 levels of cookbooks because it encourages more involvement in the MC to know that those who have mastered Monarch and Emperor are over in the IC and this one can move at a different pace as far as learning.

Although the second round may have been easier i think by looking at all the save you soon see how to best play the recovery game and where to place cities. There have been a lot of different saves this round with varying results of success. If you view all the saves you really can see where people got things right or wrong.

Whether you play monarch or immortal it is the same basic techniques that will help you win the games on the higher levels. E.g how to do a rush on the Ai, how to recover an economy using specialists and which techs to beeline. Also how best to run the economy and when to build buildings. I think one of the main things is to know where to build cities and which cities should be built first.

Rexxing would also be an interesting save to play. Give us JoaII and show us how to expand to 7 cities by 1500bc and how to recover this. The key being to get writing and pottery early on so you can tech with little or no science.

I would hope that after 2-3 games on the MC people would at least try emperor level. If you do have a bad round you can always replay it to see if you van do better.

@ Kossin - It is nice you had a specifix learning lesson for this game. I really do complain far too much. lol

 

[Fezzik]

Rexxing would also be an interesting save to play. Give us JoaII and show us how to expand to 7 cities by 1500bc and how to recover this. The key being to get writing and pottery early on so you can tech with little or no science.

I'd like to see that type of game. Rexing is not my strong suit. And I panic a bit with a crashed economy and slider at 0%. Would be nice to see how to do that intentionally and handle it well.

 

[i_imperator]

Rexxing would also be an interesting save to play. Give us JoaII and show us how to expand to 7 cities by 1500bc and how to recover this. The key being to get writing and pottery early on so you can tech with little or no science.

Catherine would be the best choice for that type of game. I'd like to see/try it too

 

[Aldor]

I finally took the time to look at the other saves for this round. Interesting to see how you all handled things differently. I've also put my vote in here (of course may have to adjust if yet another player decides to take part in this round).

Spoiler :

Also posted my data here so you can compare. BPT = Beakers per turn (sustainable with positive cash), C/W = cities / workers, Pop = population (according to F9 overview), Tech = current tech.

Player    | BPT  | C / W | Pop | Tech
----------|------|-------|-----|---------
Fezzik    | 145  | 10/12 | 5.9 | calendar
Cenan     | 126* |  8/11 | 1.9 | Paper
Stephen   |  35* | 10/14 | 1.9 | CS
Siran     |  66  | 10/ 8 | 4.3 | CS
vranasm   | 178  | 11/15 | 4.9 | Paper
Cripp     | 123* | 11/12 | 2.8 | CS
invalice  | 103* |  8/12 | 2.7 | Philosophy
Thryntlas | 102  |  8/ 6 | 2.1 | CS
Aldor     |  57* | 11/16 | 2.5 | Calendar

* can sustain higher value for a while due to cash reserves

Fezzik:
+: academy built, confu holy city, 2nd GS ready, strong military, great scouting, HRE blocked well, good diplo (clear next war target)
-: some happy resources not hooked up

Cenan:
+: academy built, confu holy city, HRE and Romans blocked very well
-: military weak, some happy resources not hooked up, still a barb city up

Stephen:
+: academy built, confu holy city, good scouting
-: Timbuktu is VERY small, some happy resources not hooked up

Siran:
+: academy built
-: lot of land not scouted

vranasm:
+: academy built, confu holy city, great scouting, good diplo (romans next war target)
-: military weak (but in build-up currently)

Cripp:
+: confu holy city + shrine, tao holy city
-: poor scouting, diplo unclear (HRE is a big threat)

invalice:
+: academy built, confu holy city + shrine, blocking ok (but lost a barb city to HRE)
-: lot of land not scouted, some happy resources not hooked up, city placement suboptimal

Thrynthlas:
+: academy built, confu holy city, blocking well done, military strong (rome will fall soon
-: lots of land not scouted, good city spots unsettled, unimproved tiles (too few workers), diplo bad with Russia

Aldor:
+: confu holy city + shrine
-: military weak (HRE big threat), no diplo ally (no religion choosen)


My voting:
1st place: Fezzik
2nd Place: vranasm

For me it was a tough choice between first and second place, as both had good things going for them. In the end I decided for Fezzik because the "what to do next" situation is more clear here, even tho vranasm is a bit further in the tech department.

And the third place goes to Cripp. Good game there too, although it might get interesting there if the HRE decides to play war