HBO Game of Thrones Inspired by the Moors.

Honestly, I think you're too hung up on the narrow sea bit and the exiled kings.

It could just as well be a parallel to the English Chanel, the Mediterranian, the Black Sea or any not too large body of water between two cultures. I think both the Mediterranen and the Black Sea make more sense. King's Landing matches Constantinople in some aspects. The Free Cities beyond the narrow sea are more remiscent of renaissance Italy: they don't have kings and their political systems are dominated by rich merchants and it's mentioned in book five that many see the Westerosi as backward savages. They were also part of Valyria (Rome with Dragons, original homland of the Targaryans) and many cities on the eastern continent speak some dialect of Valyrian.
The Dothraki in the books are describes as almond eyed and are obviously an amalgamation of steppe nomads like Hunns and Mongols, it's the HBO guys made them look and sound moe arabic.

First off why is it not obvious that the Mediterranean Sea separates North Africa from Europe, and that the Straits of Gibraltar are technically part of the Mediterranean? And it is also true that western Europeans, especially the crusaders were seen as hopeless barbarians by the Islamic world, as the Westerosi are seen as you mentioned by the cities across the Narrow Seas. And in any event North Africa , even today is littered with the ruins of the Roman empire, out of which arose the Islamic cultures; and just like renaissance Italy the Islamic world was not at all unified but rather a series of city states dominated by wealthy merchant classes ( one of the reasons the 1st Crusade was such a massive success).

And i admit the Mongols were also a major inspiration for the Dothraki ( although their languages may not lack words for thank you) as were certain Native American tribes, which has been admitted by Martin in an HBO interview. However when we compare the influence of the Mongol invasion with the Moorish invasion on europe, there is no comparism. The Moorish invasion was largely responsible for making Europe what it is even today. In terms of Science, technology and literature. Here is what Stanley poole has to say about Cordoba, Spain The Story of the Moors in Spain:

Beautiful as were the palaces and gardens of Cor-
dova, her claims to admiration in higher matters
were no less strong. The mind was as lovely as the
body. Her profi^ssors and teachers made her the
centre of European culture ; students would come
from^ all parts of Europe to study under her famous
doctors, and even the nun Hroswitha, far away in her
Saxon convent of Gaudersheim, when she told of the
martyrdom of St. Eulogius, could not refrain from
singing the praises of "Cordova, " the brightest splen-
dour of the world." Every branch of science was
seriously studied there, and medjcine received more
and greater additions by the discoveries of the doc-
tors and surgeons of Andalusia than it had gained
during all the centuries that had elapsed since the
days of Galen. Albucasis (or Abu-1-Kasim Khalaf,
to give him his proper name) was a notable surgeon
of the eleventh century, and some of his operations
coincided with the present practice. Averfzoar (Ibn
Zohr) a little later made numerous important medical
and surgical discoveries. Ibn Beytar, the botanist,
travelled all over the East to find medicinal herbs, on
which he wrote an exhaustive treatise ; and Averroes,
the philosopher, formed the chief link in the chain
which connects the philosophy of ancient Greece with
that of mediaeval Europe. Astronomy, geography,
chemistry, natural history — all were studied with
ardour at Cordova ; and as for the graces of literature,
there never was a time in Europe when poetry became
so much the speech of everybody, when people of all
ranks composed those Arabic verses which perhaps
suggested models for the ballads and canzonettes of
the Spanish minstrels and the troubadours of Pro-
vence and Italy.


All you just read above were the seeds out of which blossomed your Renaissance Italy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBPbxiHFsUs

millenarium_ric243.jpg


Studio+Der+Fr%C3%BChen+Musik+%26+Binkley+Thomas+-+Troubadours+Trouv%C3%A8res+Minstrels+(Rear).jpg


Above are two images of the European Tradition of Troubadoor poetry, inspired By Andalusian Singing girls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6sxRA0J0Kk&feature=related
 
unrequited-love_thumb.jpg


An example of the European poetic Tradition inspired by Andalusia Singing Girls:

Sonnet XXXI: With How Sad Steps, O Moon

With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb'st the skies!
How silently, and with how wan a face!
What, may it be that even in heav'nly place
That busy archer his sharp arrows tries!
Sure, if that long-with love-acquainted eyes
Can judge of love, thou feel'st a lover's case,
I read it in thy looks; thy languish'd grace
To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.
Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,
Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit?
Are beauties there as proud as here they be?
Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet
Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?
Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?

Sir Philip Sidney.

This video on youtube elaborates on the process of transfer from Andalusia Spain to the rest of Europe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6sxRA0J0Kk&feature=related

It is a tradition of poetry revolving largely around the theme of unrequited, betrayed or separated love. Here in Sir Sidney's poem the rejected and selfindulgent lover imagines that even the very moon suffers from his ill fate. In the preceding image the divine object of love meekly turns away, giving her hand but alas not her heart to the striken admirer, pouring honeyed words vainly into her noble ear. Sorry I just can't help but take full advantage of any excuse to quote poetry.
 
These things are not mutually exclusive. And the similarities include the nomadic warrior way of life, fuelled by their reliance on horses (in the case of the Sanhaja it would also mean camels and cattle).
You're right, they aren't. But the Mongols already include all of the aspects shown in the Dothraki, so what do the Sanhaja add to it? We have the author's word that the Mongols are his inspiration. Is there any evidence, any aspect of the Dothraki that supports another inspiration, in particular the Sanhaja?

"I know it's based on the Mongols but some of the things he took from them are present at X as well so who knows?" ain't a very strong argument.

And the last time i checked the Sea of Gibraltar was part of the Mediterranean. Look at the map again.
What's the Sea of Gibraltar?

What I was trying to say is that the Narrow Sea is nowhere as narrow as the Strait of Gibraltar, not even at the Stepstones.
 
Imagine this lovely Tamasheq Wench:

niger_traditional_indigo_blue_Tuareg_girl.jpg


Being the Inspiration for this:

irri.jpg


The similarities astound. Just Kidding!

I think it would do the producers a world of good to rely more or be inspired more by the real-life culture which inspires the fictional culture of the novel and show. And i dont necessarily mean making Dothraki look more like Berbers of the Sahara, but more like the Mongolians which inspire them as the author admits.
 
You're right, they aren't. But the Mongols already include all of the aspects shown in the Dothraki, so what do the Sanhaja add to it? We have the author's word that the Mongols are his inspiration. Is there any evidence, any aspect of the Dothraki that supports another inspiration, in particular the Sanhaja?

Its less about straightforward similarities than the grand geopolitics of the thing. The Narrow sea separating Europe from Barbaric Africa, the invasion which leads to ironically the Barbarian rule making the invaded land united and more prosperous, than before. And besides the culture of the Moors in Africa where they are from are a real mystery, Mongolian culture is much more accesible and widely known. It makes sense for a man who wants wide readership to base a group like the Dothraki on the more famous Mongols as opposed to the obscure culture of the Veiled People of the Sahara.


What's the Sea of Gibraltar?
Good question. I meant the Straits.

What I was trying to say is that the Narrow Sea is nowhere as narrow as the Strait of Gibraltar, not even at the Stepstones.

Oh c'mon man. It is a work of fiction and does not have to be absolutely accurate to real historical or geographic parallels
 
I think it would do the producers a world of good to rely more or be inspired more by the real-life culture which inspires the fictional culture of the novel and show. And i dont necessarily mean making Dothraki look more like Berbers of the Sahara, but more like the Mongolians which inspire them as the author admits.

I get little sense of Mongolian culture in the Dothraki, except for the general warrior and nomadic, horse riding culture, which is common to so many other Nomadic cultures, like the Sanhaja Berbers, or Apache, or Scythians, Bedouins and countless others.

mp-mongolian-naadam-wrestlers.jpg


Mongol+Empire.jpg
 
Its less about straightforward similarities than the grand geopolitics of the thing. The Narrow sea separating Europe from Barbaric Africa, the invasion which leads to ironically the Barbarian rule making the invaded land united and more prosperous, than before. And besides the culture of the Moors in Africa where they are from are a real mystery, Mongolian culture is much more accesible and widely known. It makes sense for a man who wants wide readership to base a group like the Dothraki on the more famous Mongols as opposed to the obscure culture of the Veiled People of the Sahara.
Exactly my position ;)

Whom do you mean with the "barbaric rule" now, though? Aegon or Drogo?

Oh c'mon man. It is a work of fiction and does not have to be absolutely accurate to real historical or geographic parallels
Which is exactly my point. It seemed you were arguing that the Strait of Gibraltar is another similarity which lends credit to your position, which is why I went on that tangent.

I get little sense of Mongolian culture in the Dothraki, except for the general warrior and nomadic, horse riding culture, which is common to so many other Nomadic cultures, like the Sanhaja Berbers, or Apache, or Scythians, Bedouins and countless others.
Yeah, admittedly the inspiration comes more from Western stereotypes of Mongols than the actual historical Mongols themselves. Even if we hadn't Martin's word that this is still true - which we have - I'd still call Occam's Razor on it.
 
So could Meeren = Al-Andalus?

No I think Al-Andalus would be the southern part of Westeros, as Spain is the Southern part of Europe. Cordoba was the seat of power for the Abd ar Rahman and his dynasty as Kings Landing is for the Targaryans.
 
Exactly my position ;)
Whom do you mean with the "barbaric rule" now, though? Aegon or Drogo?

Well Aegon I conquered the seven Kingdoms from the backs of Dragons. This to my mind represents a marriage between Order, represented byroyal birth and dynastic legacy and Chaos and anarchy and destruction which the dragons obviously represent. So the ' barbaric rule' would be reference to the dragons. With Khal Drogo we see a similar thing, with his literal marriage to a Targaryen. So i would say both.
 
Well Aegon I conquered the seven Kingdoms from the backs of Dragons. This to my mind represents a marriage between Order, represented byroyal birth and dynastic legacy and Chaos and anarchy and destruction which the dragons obviously represent. So the ' barbaric rule' would be reference to the dragons. With Khal Drogo we see a similar thing, with his literal marriage to a Targaryen. So i would say both.

And besides Abd Ar Rahman birth was the result of a marriage between a Syrian father and Berber mother. Likewise the Moorish domination of Spain was the result of brilliant rule as we ought to expect from refined families of noble birth like the Umayyads and merciless barbaric military supremacy as represented by the Almorhavids and the Almohads.
 
Dude, could you please lay off with the double, triple and quadruple posts ? It's confusing, annoying and I think against forum rules.
 
Dude, could you please lay off with the double, triple and quadruple posts ? It's confusing, annoying and I think against forum rules.

Hey, maybe if those who disagree me would provide me with more vigorous opposition or intelligent argument, I would not have to argue with my lonesome self.
 
Hey, maybe if those who disagree me would provide me with more vigorous opposition or intelligent argument, I would not have to argue with my lonesome self.

Based on reading this thread, I'd say you should probably practice what you preach here, bub.
 
Based on reading this thread, I'd say you should probably practice what you preach here, bub.

Ah, useless negativity! If you disagree with anything i post just point out my deficiencies. Instead, you just make clever little snides! At least Leoreth and to some extent even GoodSarmatian tried to engage with my ideas. But you seem to be a bitter, petty, mean and unprovoked little.... am gonna stop here.
 
Well, I can see where he's coming from. You have stated your theory, which is certainly interesting, and I have voiced my doubts that it is applicable, mainly based on the fact that it assumes connections that aren't obvious while there are connections present that are both obvious and supported by the author.

Your following posts only elaborate your previous theory while my objections remain, so I see no point in addressing them with the same arguments as before.
 
Well, I can see where he's coming from. You have stated your theory, which is certainly interesting, and I have voiced my doubts that it is applicable, mainly based on the fact that it assumes connections that aren't obvious while there are connections present that are both obvious and supported by the author.

Your following posts only elaborate your previous theory while my objections remain, so I see no point in addressing them with the same arguments as before.

Whatever you say Leoreth. I think this thread has been sufficiently exhausted. Am thinking of starting a new Thread;Homosexuality in Ancient Egypt. Am currently doing the research for this. Hope you participate.
 
I am sorry for the necro, but I've found this thread while I was googling something else, and I feel a strong urge to reply and set some things straight.

Because, if something annoys me, it's when someone sees a few superficial similarities between one or two things in a very large literary project and some real world historical event, and then tries to interpret the whole thing along these lines. Especially when that someone doesn't even have a complete knowledge of it - I am sorry, but the HBO's GoT captures about one fifth of what is in the book, and it's just the first book, out of five. Attempting a serious analysis of it like that would be as foolish as if I tried to interpret Shakespeare's plays after watching Shakespeare in Love.

Martin's world is undoubtedly inspired by (mostly Western/European) history. However, Martin takes from many sources and many different periods and then blends it with fantasy elements to create his own unique fictional world. You can thus find many parallels with real world historical events, but that hardly means the whole ASoIaF (A Song of Ice and Fire, for the uninitiated) is just an allegory of one event or one period of history of one place, however interesting it might be.

So...


I must admit that i am a really big fan of HBO's Game of Thrones series. The author of the fantasy series (which i have never read as i am not a big fan of literary fantasy) upon which the HBO series is based admits that the plot line is based some what on the history of Medieval England (Tudor England I think). And a number of blogs and articles related to the series keep highlighting this similarity. The most obvious similarity is the fantasy world created by Tolkein in his Ring fantasies. In any event the series gives the impression of an imagination which sprouts from a very European source.

First, there is nothing that needs to be discovered here. Martin himself said many times that a powerful inspiration for the story was the War of the Roses. Second, you cannot hope to understand the series properly if you didn't read the books. Third, although Martin loves Tolkien's books, it's as far from the Lord of the Rings as fantasy can get. Tolkien gives you an idealized image of medieval life, characters who are actually rather flat, and a story of good and evil fighting for power in the world. Martin rubs your nose in the "real" medieval life (which was often brutal and short), his characters' morals are usually very ambiguous (what he did with Jaime the Kingslayer deserves praise), and the story in a large part revolves around noble houses' intrigues and fighting wars for power - there's no "lawful good vs lawful evil" kind of thing going on at all. I laughed when I read on a blog that Martin breaks a rule of Tolkien-ish fantasy - people who look beautiful can't be bad, right?! :lol:

However a more than cursory glance at the geoplolitics of this fantasy drama reveals how much this seemingly European World is based on a history not quite pristinely European. The constant reference to the Narrow seas which separate the Nomadic, Barbaric and horse riding warriors known as the Dothraki, reminds one of the Narrow sea separating 'barbaric Africa' from Spain; and similarly the Dothraki although admitted by the authour as inspired by the nomadic culture of the Mongols and certain Native American Tribes are nonetheless reminiscent of ofcouse the 'Barbaric' moors---The Almorhavid and Almohades, among others who preceded them.

The Narrow Sea is very clearly this world's Mediterannean, with the Free Cities situated along the coast of the Eastern continent (Essos) modelled after the trading cities/merchant republics that existed in the Mediterranean, with a dose of Ancient Greece/Phoinicia/Carthage to spice them up. Take Braavos, the most powerful of the free cities - a naval power, a major trading city that is built in a lagoon to protect it against enemies... gosh, what could it be? Yes, the most obvious answer is the correct one - Braavos is mainly inspired by Venice, while the Titan statue that stands straddled over the entrance to the lagoon is probably an allusion to the Colossus of Rhodes.

Essos in general is an analogue of Asia - a large continent that stretches far to the East, largely unknown to most inhabitants of Westeros, just as the true shape and political make-up of Asia was unknown to late mediaeval Europeans. The Dothraki in the Dothraki Sea mirror the Mongols and other nomadic horsemen who lived in the large stretch of Eurasian steppe that stretched from present-day Hungary to Manchuria.

Westeros itself is curiously shaped, but culturally it's clearly modelled after mediaeval Western Europe, Britain in particular when we consider its history. First settled by men from across the Narrow Sea who displaced the "children of the forest" and their stone age technology mixed with magic, it was then invaded by the Andals who conquered the First Men and carved out their own kingdoms (bringing Iron Age technology and a new religion with them). This is probably inspired by the invasions Britain suffered repeatedly in its ancient history - but the order isn't chronological, it's not as if Martin is simply recreating the British history in a fantasy form. BTW, the Wall itself has clearly been inspired by Hadrian's Wall, as a short glance at the map will tell you.

Africa is 'represented' only scantly, by the Summer Isles and the continent of Sothoryos (covered by jungles, largely unexplored and unmapped) whose inhabitants have a skin the colour of ebony.

Even the hapless fate of the Targaryen family is reminescent of the Umayyads (the first Caliphate) massacred by the Abassids. Here is Stanley Poole describing the survival of Abd al Rahman, the half Berber prince in The Story of The Moors in Spain:

It could be an inspiration, but I wouldn't stretch it. Targaryen dynasty was established in Westeros after the Doom of Valyria, which from what we know about it is this world's version of the Roman Empire, a large civilization with 'surprisingly' Latin-sounding language that has left a lasting cultural legacy around the known world, although it was itself destroyed later (by forces unknown). After the demise of Valyria, one of its surviving noble houses - the Targaryens - led a war of conquest in Westeros, and managed to unite most of it (except Dorne) under their rule. This is inspired by both the Roman conquest of Britain, but more importantly by the Norman conquest of England a thousand years later. The first king of the "Seven kingdoms" was Aegon the Conqueror, which is the same epithet we now use for the guy who in his time was called William "the Bastard". Again, the allusion couldn't be made more obvious.

Although the noble qualities listed by the end of extract belong to the Lady Targaryen as oppossd to her brother, the similarities are apparent. Abd al Rahman goes on to cross the narrow seas and conquer Spain, using his his royal blood as legitimacy; the Tagaryens whose entire royal line has been massacred save the two, plan on doing the same.

Of course, the Targaryens plan to do that after they've been exiled from what you think is the analogue of Spain, which in itself should be enough for you to abandon this theory.

And ofcourse there is the Ecoculture of these seven Kingdoms--The most convincincing evidence. The North is portrayed as backward, unelightended , poverty stricken and winter-bound, whereas the south is the land of warmth and sun, and culture and wealth. This again is a reflection of the contrast between Andalusia Spain, conqured and civilized by the ironically 'Barbaric Moors' and the rest of medieval Europe. Here is Stanley poole again:

Absolutely not. The North is not described in any such way, and in any case the North is a part of the Seven kingdoms too (the last independent king in the North bent his knee before Aegon the Conqueror when he realized he stood no chance against his armies and dragons). The North is poorer than some of the more southern parts of Westeros simply because it is colder and thus less fertile compared to the Reach or the Riverlands. In my opinion, the North and its culture is largely inspired by Scotland/Northern England and the role it played in English history.

But one tires of tring to find African culture and history in the subtext or subconscious of very outwardly European shows. In this series for instance there is hardly any black person in the darn show. The few blacks are all in the background and surprise surprise are the barbarian women of the Dothraki, who eat the heart of horses raw, whose language has no word for thank you. When are we going to see a historic TV drama based on an African history and culture unashamed to show its 'black' face. A show like Shaka starring the inimitable Henry Cele!

And of course the inevitable complaint about the supposed racism of this fantasy world :rolleyes: I am really tired of such comments, especially if uttered by someone who doesn't even know the books and speaks of the HBO show as if it was not based on them. I suppose there are people who wouldn't stop at criticizing LotR films for not making Aragorn black for the sake of political correctness :crazyeye:

Since Westeros is a functional analogue of Western Europe, why should there be any black people around? Were there many black people in medieval France, Germany, or England? No. There were probably none, except an occasional slave brought from overseas as a curiosity. In the books, the only black people in Westeros I know of are Jalabhar Xho, an exile prince from the Summer Isles who is a courtier in the royal court, and Chataya/Alayaya, whores in one of the luxurious brothels in King's Landing. Black-skinned people from the Summer Isles trade with Westeros, but that's about it.

There is no "shame in showing an African face" because there are practically no African faces in the setting. Complaining about that is as pointless as complaining that there are no Eskimos in Indonesia and no Aboriginals in the Arctic.
 
I laughed when I read on a blog that Martin breaks a rule of Tolkien-ish fantasy - people who look beautiful can't be bad, right?! :lol:

I think that's a little unfair - Sauron only managed to bring down Numenor by appearing fair, and indeed one of the main themes of the Silmarillion is the corruption of Fëanor, who was presumably not ugly. A better target for this criticism would be Conan Doyle, who consistently tells us that people's characters, and in particular how good or bad they are, can be immediately read from their faces, which rather diminishes the impressiveness of Holmes' ability to deduce who the villain is.
 
I think that's a little unfair - Sauron only managed to bring down Numenor by appearing fair, and indeed one of the main themes of the Silmarillion is the corruption of Fëanor, who was presumably not ugly. A better target for this criticism would be Conan Doyle, who consistently tells us that people's characters, and in particular how good or bad they are, can be immediately read from their faces, which rather diminishes the impressiveness of Holmes' ability to deduce who the villain is.

I think in was meant largely as a jest, but I've always felt that the beauty-character relationship is accented too much in Tolkien-styled fantasy.

In Martin's take on fantasy, physical beauty has no relation to the purity of character whatsoever, as is the case in the real world. Beautiful women and men are good as well as bad, sometimes both at the same time. I mentioned Jaime Lannister, who is described as being very handsome, yet it's him who pushes a child out of the window. For the first two books, a reader hates him and despises him. Yet when he's made into a POV character in the third book, he/she begins to sympathise with him and learns that he isn't a bad guy at heart, not completely. This ambiguity of character is fairly common in ASoIaF, I can think of few characters there which could be described as purely good or purely bad, and even the good characters are usually flawed in some way or other (Eddard Stark is one of the good characters, but it's his honour that prevents him from doing what's best in situations he has to deal with). In LotR and other Tolkien's works on the other hand, characters are usually either good or bad, with little middle ground.

Game of Thrones and the other ASoIaF books could be read as a satire on the "traditional" fantasy literature, actually.

BTW, I am a bit disappointed by the appearance of the main characters in HBO's GoT. Martin reiterates throughout the book that the great houses usually have sets of distinct physical traits that distinguish them. Lannisters are all blond and green eyed; Cersei and Jaime are supposed to have hair "of woven gold". Targaryens have silver hair and purple eyes, Baratheons black hair and blue eyes, Tullys are auburn haired, Starks traditionally have dark brown hair and grey eyes, etc. They don't really adhere to it that much in the TV version, which is a shame. Also, they make some characters look too good - I realize it's hard to fully capture the looks of some of the characters, but as good as Dinklage is as Tyrion, he's supposed to be much uglier (later he also gets some pretty nasty scars and other wounds, so I am looking forward how they deal with that).
 
I think you're missing many elements in the Tolkienverse that subvert the "beauty equals goodness" trope.

Take Aragorn. He's obviously portrayed as one of the major good characters in LotR, and as deserving of the throne of Gondor. Still, in the first books, he has all that "untrustworthy loner" stuff going on, people in Bree mistrust him because he's out in the forests, conceals his face and doesn't talk much. Frodo wonders for a long time if he can really trust him, and that's only resolved when they all arrive in Imladris.

On the other hand, good looks are actually employed three times by the villains of the world, everytime it's basically the reason why the were able to become so powerful and dangerous in the first place.

Exhibit one: after the creation of the world as it is in the First Age (i.e. physical Aman + Middle Earth), Morgoth is imprisoned by the Valar. Over time, he starts to play nice with them, so they eventually reluctantly accept him as reformed and let him move freely in Valinor. Then he basically takes the appearance of the Eldar and begins to gain the favor of the Noldor and Feanor in particular, thus starting the whole Silmaril and Oath of Feanor mess.

Exhibit two: Sauron in the Second Age on Númenor, corrupting the Dunedain to break with the Valar and worship faux Iluvatar instead. The result of that was Ar-Pharazon's attempt to invade Valinor and the subsequent destruction of Númenor.

Exhibit three: Sauron under the guise of Annatar among the ring smiths in Ost-in-Edhil, which allowed him to forge the One Ring and set the plot of LotR into motion.

Every of these attempts worked only because of sweet talk and good looks.

Actually I think the only reason why Tolkien gets so much flak here is because of his portrayal of the elves. Considering how screwed up most of them are, especially the Noldor, I think we hardly have a case here. The only decent elves in the Silmarillion are Finrod and Turgon, I guess, and in LotR we're happy to only meet Elrond and Galadriel, mainly because they're the only elves left that actually care about what happens to Middle Earth and the rest is gone already.
 
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