Hegemon! Of the Classical Greek World!

Virote, if people think having one King is good, then two kings are better, right? I was gonna do a chronicle of the Dodekanesioi, but I must skip to Troy and do the Rhodians once they're over.
 
Playing as the Corinthians. Let's see what happens.
 
Playing as the Corinthians. Let's see what happens.
Korinth was my favourite game so far, back in version 1 of Hegemon. It's challenging but great fun, and I'll not need to point out the obvious tactical advantage that Korinth enjoys from its position on the isthmus. Good luck strategos.

I will have to try this too. From the OP's it seems to be a massive work, an ergon worthy of Titans :)
It comes very recommended. :)
 
I did a small trip of the Ionians, they don't have an Ancestor which leaves them rather vulnerable to the Lydoi and Karieis (who do have Acnestors even if they're not Greeks) in the early game.
 
It's meant to be like that. Not everyone gets an ancestor unit.

Whilst I'm posting let me say sorry for the long silence. I've been frightfully busy with work and fatherhood and I've also been derailed amidst all that by my computer dying on me. It's been massively disruptive. Of course, I've backed everything up! Once things have settled down again I'll be getting back to folk here. In the meantime, rest assured I am reading the posts, I just don't have the time to offer detailed responses just yet, but am getting there soon.
 
A true slacker would consider that parenting can be done by the mother and work can be shunted onto coworkers for 'some' time. You, sir, are no slacker.
 
To my good friend and mentor Rambuchan in the city of Λονδίνο.
Gladly I agree to this proposal of yours, that I investigate the history of the great city of Korinthos (or Corinth, as they call my home city in your language). With my good neighbour Nikephoros we have managed to construct a butter-based time machine, which means that his wife Sophia is currently after him for using up all the butter in the house -I ran out of my own, and Nikephoros erroneously surmised that his wife wouldn't mind our borrowing some of hers- but she can't find him, for he's hiding in my attic, and I can't be found as I'm still in the time displacement bubble. Next time I'll bring a camera.
Spoiler Attached: Field Report #1 :

The early history of the Corinthians: the wars on Sparte and Mykenai​
It appears that the great city of Corinth was founded in a time unknown to us, but around 1200 before the coming of Christos our Lord it came to be that the city emerged as a separate politeia dominating the isthmus, and impeding the passage of armies or trade through it, unless tolls were paid and people minded the gap.
Nearly two centuries later, a city was founded by Corinthian emigrés in the eastern shores of the Corinthian Gulf, called Lechthaion. Soon after that, the Spartans constructed a great Temple to Hera, and needed Hecatombs. It is believed that they attacked Corinth in advance so as to procure victims from the Hecatombs, instead of buying from the Greeks as is custom. At least, that's what I saw. The Spartiatai demanded technological advancements at first, trying to bully their neighbours into teaching them their hard-earned knowledge for free, but this would not happen. Eventually the Spartiatai extracted knowledge from all the Hellenic tribes around them, and there was nothing Corinth could teach them. Yet the Doric city of bullies wouldn't back down, so they demanded that the city of Lechthaion be handed over to them, an insult beyond belief to my ancestors. The Corinthian leaders grew exasperated at the duplicity of Mykenai, whose King was allowing the semibarbaric Spartans to march East into the Isthmus but expelling their enemies from his lands, so an attack was ordered as chastisement for his non-belligerence.

It pains me to say that the attack was not done in what was considered the most manly or heroic manner of the day, but expeditiously, like traders and craftsmen do things. Still, this expedience meant that the Corinthians traded knowledge with peple on both sides of the isthmus, being monopolycal and monopsonial on the same goods, which is something few traders have achieved.
The Corinthians marched straight up to the gates of Mykenai, and when the local king asked them to leave, they refused. It may also be that allegations of either side being descended from donkeys or swine were made at some point, but I'm not sure which, as the language of those days isn't exactly the same as that which we speak today -remember, this is still before the koiné. At least it's implied that they (the side other than that which the speaker is on) are descended from a quadruped. Not much was achieved, as there was much skirmishing, but in the first bout an Akonistes fell from the city walls into the dust, and many more from his division were seen to have been killed inside. In short, an entire unit appeared to have fallen.
Two years later, after some time recovering from their exertions -I ventured out briefly in, the two sides met again at the gates, with identical result. As the Corinthians retreated to safety, some axemen were seen coming from Tyrins and Pylos to the north, they were repulsed without much difficulty. It also transpires that the Spartiatai also annoyed the Argioi, for some of their spearmen fled south when our javelins hit them¹. I've just seen the Corinthians take Mykenai, and in the confusion, the great work of the Mykenaioi, their Mykenean trade, was lsot, and my countrymen did not now how to continue the project, so it can be said to be what you English call a 'balls-up'.
Of course the Spartiatai were informed, and their new Temple to Artemis called many skilled bowmen to their armies, moreover, they now demanded Mykenai instead of Lechthaion as a peace offering. My kinsmen appear to have learned chariot-making from the Thrakai, far up north, but I haven't seen this myself².

As an aside, I wouldn't like to think ill of my ancestors, but it would appear that most of the Argolid was open to attack in that time.
News came to the city -I pose as a trader- that the Spartiatai have built a Great Rhetra, and that they also plan to build a temple to Ares. Not the information sharing programme, but the god of war himself.

Peryander told some of his lieutenants to manage a peace with the Spartiatai, and this was reached: the knowledge of Ship Building would come to the hands of the Lacædemonians, while the latter would pay over a hundred Talents in War reparations and also teach the Corinthians Pottery. The Mykenaioi were persuaded to hand over Pylos and a Doulos, as well as a modest indemnity of 22 Talents and a contingent of workers, which is all that was left of their treasury. I know that the opinions of everyone in the Peloponessos were that Corinth was a mighty warring polis, but we all knew that a more prolonged war would've put too much of a strain on the Isthmian coffers.

Hermes smiled upon the Corinthians, for they were the first people ever to come to him and build him a Temple. I say that it is simply an illusion, and that by focusing upon trade they amanged to become better at it than any other Dorian tribe, but that is something I cannot tell the extemporaneous pre-Christian Greeks, or they'd tear me limb from limb. But anyway, it is proved that they managed to operate on little to no cost at all, and I assume that this would mean and advantage of sorts for them, even if the Spartiatai appear to have been a bunch of warring psycopaths.

1: see? I'm already rooting for 'my' city, even if it's two thousand years ago
2: the time displacement device doesn't have an incorporated spatial displacement function, I have a few ideas on this which I'll work on, provided Sophia doesn't find Nikephoros, or we can buy her more butter


-Τακις, field researcher of the Rambuchanian Transhistorical Society. report #1.​
Some notes I've taken down are:
  • for the next time I need a petasos (there is a costume shop two doors down) for they knew nothing of sunblock in those times.
  • the wine in ancient times was stronger than now, it was also subject to no antibacterial controls, so I've spent half the day in and out of the toilet.
Also, as Nikephoros is still holding out inside my attic, he says he might have found an alternative to butter. In the meantime I'll slip out the back and buy some butter -Nik slipped me some thirty euros under the attic door- and hope to get back by the same way before Sophia breaks down the front door, as she's an ancient history student too -that's how she met Nik, we were at the same class, and she's putting it to good use, as the sounds form outside would indicate that she's cut down one of the trees in the garden and is fitting it to become a battering ram.
 
Some good news, my friend Rambuchan. I finally managed to locate a petasos and some sunblock, so this time I didn't come with that much of a sunburn.
Also, Nikephoros has found that margarine is at least 35% more efficient at generating a time-vortex field than butter, so we've quickly established a margarine oligopsony by buying in bulk directly from the skinflints at Athens. To make matters worse, Panathinaikos walloped Korinthos FC, 4-0 yesterdayin a Cup match, so the next margarine supply is going to be delivered in tense circumstances.
Spoiler Field report #2 :
The Great Theban War, Part One​

I arrived soon after the time of my latest departure to witness a Theban embassy demanding that the Korynthioi hand over 35 Talents in tribute or else. This was met with proper pride by the men of the isthmus, and rejected out of hand.
The first advance was a scouting party of
one Akonistes. Promptly bombarded with javelins and finished off by the Logchophoroi, of course, as they threatened Corinthian silver mines. Then the skirmishers advanced eastwards around the next chain of hills, where a Theban settlement was found. Æolians are not to be trusted, for some reason they settled too far from the sea to establish a harbour, and between three hills, being near both grape vines and silver mines but controlling none. That the skirmishers are the fastest of infantry is a good thing, as the Thebans were lying in wait and their archers came behind in pursuit, trying to get within range. Pylos up in the Peloponessian coast was reinforced by ship, while the construction of a harbour enabled the great project of a temple to Poseidon, god of the sea. An enemy Penteconter was sunk off the port of Plataia in the Gulf of Korinth, and the Thevaioi insanely demanded 260 Talents in gold as war reparations! The cheek!
As is to be expected, this insult only infused more courage into the Isthmian hearts, and another group of archers was decimated by their javelins.
News have come from scouting parties in the north, that a people called the 'Chersonesioi' were met. Their real name is unpronounceable barbarian gibberish, but since they lived in what came to be known as the Chersonesos I'll use this rather descriptive name. They were cousins of the Thrakai, and very backward, they didn't know pottery, crafting or chariot-making, for example. Also their leader never let go of his shield and wore a wolfskin over his head and back. It smelled. And his highland troops didn't shave or wash their hair!
The Spartans built a Temple to Ares around this time, too, increasingly militarising their culture.
Around this time a real invasion began, but to threaten a Dorian's possessions one must do more than wave clubs about, which is what the Æolians did. To threaten a Dorian, you must be as good as him, which can only be managed by another Dorian.
The Spartans also built a Temple to Apollo, who brings great happiness to the people every day.
Meanwhile, the counterattack was successful and Orchomenos sacked and destroyed. Some douloi were taken home.

-Τακις, field researcher of the Rambuchanian Transhistorical Society. Report #2.​
I nearly forgot to tell you, but Sophia and Nikephoros have finally made peace. That is, of course, after she gave him a blow on the top of the head with the frying pan, but once he regained consciousness she went soft and forgave him.
My cousin Kostas is coming over, too, he says he has a wonderful new recipe he wants to try. To be on the safe side, I'll ask him to cook it at home so as not to stink up the place.
_______________________
OOC: The Temple of Poseidon is the easest one to 'steal' from the AI if things are going smoothly, as the Artificial Idiot tends not to build harbours this early in the game.
 
As was expected, Kostas did manage to stink up his kitchen, but the end result was quite nice. Sophia (my wife, not Nikephoros', she's as mild as my friend's wife is fiery) did like the taste and asked for the recipe. That's how I know Kostas stunk up the place, for she's trying it out right now.
The margarine men from Athens appear to support AEK, so we commiserated after their own defeat at the . The Prasinoi are really making trouble for us all.
Spoiler Field report #3 :
The Great Theban War, Part Two​
This time I travelled north to meet the Thrakai. They're amiable people, who live in Thrake (hence their name). As I said in field report #2, they're cousins to the Chersonesioi, and they share such traits as a lack of hygiene, of olive oil and good cooking with their kin.
It seems that knowledge was tradeable for money instead of other knowledge, and new sets of pictograms were bought from the Thettaloi at a cost of 275 Talents. This, Periander assured me one night in his cups, would enable the researchment of Episema and the organisation of Corinthians into camps. It seems that bronzeworking was rediscovered in 722 BC, the same year that the Æolians from Thessalia came with their bargain, and this was a great technological leap.
A Temple to Demeter was built in Samos, far to the East in the Dodecanese, and the goddess was supposed to favour their agricultural output (I scoff at that). A year or two after that (it's hard to time the dates, the ancient calendar was a bit messy, but it was certainly better than whatever calendars the barbarians had) the Thevaioi built a Temple to Dionysus in Haliartus, to the north of the Boeotian plain near Delphi, and the Troes built great Walls around their city.
Worrying developments took place later, when the Atheniaoi crossed Corinthian borders, but they agreed to retreat and were let off with a warning.
In 698 a great Temple to Poseidon was founded, and, believe it or not, all ships manned by the men of the isthmus were now faster! The following summer, under these good omens, the port of Peraia was founded on the Euboean Gulf, near the location of old Orchomenos, securing access to wine and tin (and taking both away from the Æolian scum to the north). This was a good commercial move, and introduces a wedge between Athens and Thevai.
-Τακις, field researcher of the Rambuchanian Transhistorical Society. Report #3.​
Really, Sophia my wife wants to come next time. Any advice? I suppose I -could- get her to take some pictures, I'm hopeless with a camera.
 
Nikephoros took a turn in the machine this time and he tells me that:
a-The Theban War was concluded satisfactorily, with the Æolioi giving up their exclusive hold on the knowledge of archery and other arts that comprise their warrior code, and the Athenians greedily accepted to exchange that for their superior knowledge of religion.
b-Later on, the Corinthians agreed to pay 29 Talents of silver in tribute to the Spartiatai in order to avoid a war, having decided that Tyrins was a more profitable enemy.
Mysticism was obtained from the Illyrioi who came asking for knowledge in either Bronze Workign or the Alphabet. The Thrakai asked for the same, but for free, and were sent home in shame. They appeared to have declared war.
Tyrins fell easily in 596 BC, the same year that the Korynthioi set out east to the Ægean to found colonies, and many Douloi were captured there. An expedition due west to retake the rebellious colony of Kerkyra is in order, but more way-stations must be secured. Control of Elis and perhaps southern Lokris would help, but the main stepping-stone is Ithake and the surrounding archipelago. Elis would also mean that the Spartiatai would be curtailed in the northern Peloponessos, for they're sure to be attempting to conquer that sooner or later. At least, thsi is what Nikephoros thinks.

I'm sorry for the lack of more pertinent information, but Nikephoros appears to have gone football-crazy and spent most of his time measuring out the exact location of Korinthos F.C.'s Sinikismos stadium as related to the old Temple of Poseidon.

OOCs: Colony ship should *not* rotate when attacking.
Also, while the Korkyra wonder is buildable alright, Syrakousai is buildable in
-Zákynthos
-Northern Elis/Achaia
-the island of Naxos, to the South.
Which one's more recommendable?
 
The Thrakai tried to extort some tribute from the Isthmian heroes, sent a single Laeaean as an invading force, and nothing else happened, at the time of Nikephoros' leaving he didn't know when the war would end.
It also transpires that a war sprung up with the Aetolians after they took some Timber and didn't want to pay for it.
The southern half of Zakynthos, under Messenian control, was quickly taken by a surprise attack. The northern half remained under Epirote control, assuming you can tell them apart from their Illyrian neighbours to the north.
Also, the Lydoi came threatening to take our literature or else, and were told off rather sharply, Nikephoros says.
Hopefully I'll be up and about in a few days.

OOC: weird thing. The tech advisor came up saying that we'd entered a new era, I chose Literature as next tech, and it next said that we'd learned 'Pottery' from the Spartiatai, and I got a free tech as if I had Herodotus' History. :dunno:
 
Those gfx are out of place, look at their positions compared to the units on the same tiles.
 
You clearly haven't played the Total War game series then.
 
It's been a long time since the scenario was published and I haven't written about it yet, but, as they say, better late than never :)

First of all, I would like to thank the authors for such a polished scenario. It's truly incredible! I especially admire the idea of basing the scenario on the works of the “Father of History”, Herodotus :) It has been done so well that in spite of not having been interested in the history of ancient Greece, I started reading about it, finally getting to Herodotus's “The Histories” - a fascinating read :)

In my opinion, this scenario is definitely the best that has been created so far on the C3C scene. Until now, nothing else has been so enchanting and enjoyable for me. I listen to the soundtrack everyday too.

Now some comments:

One of the things that could be added is Apollo's oracle in Didim lead by an old hieratic family known as Branchidae. Herodotus mentions it when he describes how Croesus turned to different oracles to inquire whether he should start a war with Persia. I believe it was such an important place then, that it deserves to be placed in the scenario. I would suggest a small miracle that can be built only by Ionia. Actually, only the city of Miletus would be able to build it. As for bonuses, this miracle should give culture and increase income, but I'm not sure by how much. Also, I think a resource “prophets” might be added somewhere in the range of the city of Miletus. It would symbolize that oracle. I'm willing to prepare information for Civilopedia.

Below is some general information about the temple:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didyma
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/greece/paganism/didyma.html http://didimestate.com/didim_tr.php

Another thing that could be added is Alyattes II's mound. Herodotus mentioned it in his description of Lydia, so I think a mention in the form of a small miracle which could give a little amount of culture for the round is reasonable.
Both these miracles wouldn't influence the mechanics and balance of the game. I'm ready to prepare suitable entries for Civilipedia.

When it comes to the game itself:

Crete – it must be unbelieveably hard to win on the emperor level, but I think a lot can be done to make others' lives difficult ;) One only has to have a goal to achieve. I didn't really know what I wanted to do, so I got stuck in difficult battles in Messeni.
Ithaca – really hardcore! I conquered the nearby islands, but nothing above that, If I had played it better, I could have found some space to live on... Crete ;) I even raided and burnt two cities, but that was about it. Later I only fought for survival with everyone attacking me continuously. I haven't finished the game because I physically wasn't able to do it . A couple of rounds more and I would have been left with just Ithaca.

Athens – I'm in the middle of playing and it's very enjoyable. There are plenty of resources and the very fast scientific development allows for dominance over the rivals. The allocation of special resources leads to the historical development of The Delian League, but I chose two different solutions. One was – after taking over Euboea and the majority of the Cyclades – attempting at conquering Crete. And there I got involved in a long-term war, during which I conquered some cities, but the Cretans were persistently trying to recapture them, attacking me with hordes of their armies and ravaging the cities' surroundings. I felt as if I were in a besieged fortress and I haven't gained anything except for getting involved in a deadly and long-lasting conflict.

Another thing is the conflict with Sparta. It is simply inevitable and leads to a situation in which it may seem that you are taking part in a real Peloponnesian War ;)

Phrygia – I've played just the beginning for a couple of times and tested the capabilities of Phrygian warriors. I could see that, with some luck, you can terrorize the neighbours (especially Lydia) in the beginning of the game and reduce the technological advantage. It may be significant for further playing. From what I observed, in most cases Lydia conquers Phrygia with the exception of a situation in which Phrygia attacks first in the beginning of the game. Then it is able to grow so powerful that Lydia isn't able to defeat Phrygia by itself. Anyway, playing in Asia Minor and playing in continental Greece are completely different; there are different challenges and different problems.

That would be all so far ;) I'll try to upload printscreens from different games later.

And a question to Rambuchan: Are you planning to work any more on this or other scenarios? I would really like to help. I can't modify the game but I can help with Civilopedia and content-related scenario preparations (of course if it will be based on history).
 
PiotrG, one way to limit Spartan power is to straddle the Corinthian isthmus as soon as possible (by all means, you'll cripple the Thebans as well) with one or two cities and occupy the place with Gymnitoi. Otherwise, Sparta will be offended by one or more of the northern Greeks in Ætolia, Illyria, Epeiros, etc. and conquer them, their Communal distribution of corruption through Diarchy grows compeltely out of hand.

As for the Cretans, yes, they're rather a pain. Sparte usually sends out a few colonists and lands them on the western Kyklades and northwestern Crete, the Cretan forces tend to expelm them rather quickly once Sparta starts attacking everyone else.
 
It's been a long time since the scenario was published and I haven't written about it yet, but, as they say, better late than never :)

First of all, I would like to thank the authors for such a polished scenario. It's truly incredible! I especially admire the idea of basing the scenario on the works of the “Father of History”, Herodotus :) It has been done so well that in spite of not having been interested in the history of ancient Greece, I started reading about it, finally getting to Herodotus's “The Histories” - a fascinating read :)

In my opinion, this scenario is definitely the best that has been created so far on the C3C scene. Until now, nothing else has been so enchanting and enjoyable for me. I listen to the soundtrack everyday too.
PiotrG – Many thanks for writing about Hegemon and for such kind words of praise. Of course, I completely agree with everything you say above :D

I'm delighted to hear that making this scenario has encouraged at least one person to go ahead and read Herodotus. Good for you! I'm glad you are enjoying it so much.

You make some suggestions for things to include based on what you have been reading. They are good suggestions and that period of Herodotus’s Histories which you identify (when Croesus seeks advice) is an especially interesting part. In fact, I have already alluded and referred to that section in several pedia entries. For example, the unit entry for the Hero has a brief note of advice which Solon gave to Croesus. There are many other entries which speak of the advice certain Oracles gave and Croesus’s response to that advice. You just have to go digging around in the Civilopedia to find them. :groucho:

That said, I will not be making any further changes or additions in the manner that you suggest. I will only be releasing a little patch which fixes a few things, such as the game-within-the-game with Ithaca, the Colony Wonders and some pedia entry corrections.

It’s not that your suggestions are bad. They are good. It’s just that Herodotus is so rich and there’s so much which can be included that, at some point, you have to draw the line, both in terms of what to include and also when to stop working on the scenario and say that it’s done.

And a question to Rambuchan: Are you planning to work any more on this or other scenarios? I would really like to help. I can't modify the game but I can help with Civilopedia and content-related scenario preparations (of course if it will be based on history).
I am not planning on making another scenario right now, though I get ideas all the time. And, aside from the patch I’ve mentioned above, I won’t be doing any further work on Hegemon. In fact, the patch is already done and was done a couple of months ago. I just haven’t had any time to test it before releasing it.

Sorry if this disappoints you. I am not the kind of scenario maker who is constantly working on new scenarios. I just focus on one in particular and seek to get it as polished, rich and fun as it can be. It has been said before that I make one really good one every few years and that is likely how it will continue. They just take a very long time to make them well and that is something I don't have a lot of these days.

If you enjoy this scenario, there is another one I made many years ago - it's here. It has all the qualities that you seem to appreciate in Hegemon. Give it a go!

And I'd love to see those screen shots you mention. Do please post them. It is always interesting for me to see how players' games have turned out. And I very much enjoyed reading your observations on playing with different civs. I'm sure such observations are handy for other players and I find it interesting to read them (I always read posts even if I don't have time to post). One thing I will say is that I am surprised how much fascination players have had with Crete. They really were an insignificant power in the scenario's time period, as a reading of both Herodotus and Thucydides suggests.
 
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