Hegemon! Of the Classical Greek World! Jul '22

[Keroro]

Many thanks for the enslaving foot unit tips. I believe I've now made all the necessary changes. One thing I'm uncertain of however is what happens with the immobile treasure units. Many of those are created from enslavement, but I'm unsure whether an immobile can be flagged as a foot unit without anything weird happening. Any ideas?

This would cause bad effects (when the AI tries to unload immobile units from a ship, it causes the game to hang).

The trick: Remove the immobile flag. This will also remove the AI strategy for "Flag Unit", but as El Justo's AoI shows this means less than diddly squat in terms of AI hamperment (meaning he found that the AI still very well knew to cash them in. Probably because the offensive/defensive units still have it in their program to secure a unit flagged as "flag" in the abilities section, whether or not that flag unit also has the corresponding strategy)

Hmm, with treasure units I'm starting to doubt whether we need a change at all. Leaders definitely needed changing to foot units. Treasure, as it can immediately be picked up by one of the units on the tile, maybe doesn't need to be flagged as a foot unit at all. It also occurs to me that the problem I originally described would be present in any situation where your transport vessel was full, and must have been present with marines in the vanilla game - and it must be an infrequently encountered problem if I'm the first person in this thread to have noticed it!

Thinking about the AI and it's use of units, it's probably best to leave things as they are rather than risk the hang issue that Virote rightly notes. If no-one else has had trouble with treasure units on early ships then perhaps leave them as they are.

El Justo's AoI does things differently, but I suspect using the same method might possibly change the character of the scenario a little? It works pretty well as is, so let's let it be.

In other news:
My game has moved on considerably. Update tonight hopefully.

 

[Rambuchan]

Yeah, when I read Virote's post I thought "nice, but best to leave the treasure units as they are!" As mentioned, there will always be a unit on hand to pick them up. So I'll leave them be. But leader has been changed to foot unit for sure.

 

[Takhisis]

Takhisis:

You give us all these little game reports but, you know what they say, don't you?

Spoiler :

Screenies or it didn't happen!

<audiblegasp> WAT YOU SAY? This you'll see, you barbarous man of the north beyond the sea!

Yeah, when I read Virote's post I thought "nice, but best to leave the treasure units as they are!" As mentioned, there will always be a unit on hand to pick them up. So I'll leave them be. But leader has been changed to foot unit for sure.

My thoughts exactly (I was beginning to write a mid-length reply to the latest three posts on the subjects, but I'm a lazy bum who has to cook lunch and who accidentally fell into the clutches of a bookshop, so wasted away part of the morning, and even then I have to upload pics)

-------
After lunch you shall get them, we (I have to speak in the plural, for my will has been curtailed by the people, and they now have a say in the matters of government) have conquered the whole of Chíos, and also two cities to the east of it on the Asian mainland, west of the Gulf of Smyrna. While this happened, the Lydoi marched against the Aioles and expelled them from Lesbos, and also took the city of Troy, Priamos has taken refuge on the island of Marmara. Another Aiolian city was taken by the Lydoi, next to the two we had taken in the mainland, when we landed our forces next to them, they immediately agreed to surrender the city in exchange for peace, when only two or three years ago those uncultured barbarians were asking us for our knowledge of History as a price to be bought off, so as to continue their waragainst our Aiolian brethren. We take this peace, so as to enjoy our Golden Age with great buildings, but we have learned this, that the Pezhetairos is a strong defender, and better than our Hoplites, furthermore, that Lesbos and Troy are there for the taking, should the barbarians come again looking for Athenian bronze, so the Grain Tax from the Chersonessians might be obtained at a reasonable price, should such stepping-stones be acquired.

On the semi-civilised Makedonai: Phillip's subjects are strange people enough, they are now becomign hellenised and the superiority of the ways of the Hellenes is evident in their pushing back of the Thrakai who, at the start of the current long war, had taken one or two of their poleis.

Last but not least, the Aetolioi have been fought off again, after dozens of their unarmoured Prodromoi were killed, their Champions lost heart and moved away. South in Delos, the Episkopoi Lodge has recently been finished, and now we hope that we can produce enough for our Tribute to be greater than the Asians'. Richer than Croisos indeed!

 

[Takhisis]

Imagery has been produced. O wise Rambuchan, here we present to thee, these frescoes, upon which Athenian painters have taken to depicting the greatness of our city.
First comes a fresco depicting our fair city and its surroundings:

Spoiler :

Now comes, by logical extension (logic being a Greek invention of course), our neighbouring, Atticised possessions in the Kyklades, which one were under Euboian and Kykladian allegiance:

Spoiler :

Up North, near the lands of Philip, next to the three-pronged peninsula where the illustrious poet Kyriakos lives, exploitation of gold mines should begin within the next quarter of a century:

Spoiler :

Out east, where Samos is due to become a naval base:

Spoiler :

 

[Takhisis]

I must make further comments on game balance:

The Athenian Hoplite's combination of HP and high defense makes it be first choice on defense over the Pezhetarios (i.e. the Hoplite will be attacked first)
The Imperial Trireme has a transport capacity of seven units, but the Navarch Trireme can carry only five. The Horse Transport does indeed carry seven units, and of all sizes, but Athens cannot build it. So the early blessing of the Imperial Trireme becoems, in effect, a curse once Navarch Triremes become standard fare. If it weren't for the possibility of building Quays and making island cities productive, I'd simply not research it. EDIT: this means that we'd be unable to transport cavalry. It's a no-go unless I simply pile up the Imperial Triremes to the end. In the meantime I'm changing the Horse Transport to be available for Athens.

On the bright side, since we have two cities on Mt. Pangaio, we'll try to mine from both.

 

[King Coltrane]

honestly, i dont know why you'd even want to upgrade the imperial trireme. yes, they are a tiny bit weaker than the navarch trireme, but so what? they are super fast, carry lots of troops, and will surely be supplemented with additional navarch triremes throughout a campaign (auto-produced and insta-upgraded units from the long walls.) if you want to add a few navarch's to your imp. trireme fleet i think you can maintain the same degree of control you had earlier in the game.

i do however agree about the thorakites (i think thats what you mean right? the 4-hp 6.10.1 unit that obsoletes the hoplite right?) i think they could use one extra hp and it wouldnt imbalance things too much. as it is, i currently dont upgrade my athenian hoplites either.

 

[Takhisis]

The Imperial Triremes won't be upgraded, they'll be replaced. So I'll have to stock up on them, although I've had two leaders and built my regional capitals up in the Hexapolis and in Samos (where ship-building's commencing); I need to have the Navarch Trireme become the standard force becaus I need Quays to make my island cities (Kyklades, Sporades, etc.) be worth something regarding production, I can hurry a few buildings every now and then but I can't keep pouring money into those, so sea-shields and engineers it has to be.

 

[Takhisis]

The Long Walls entry, Ram:

^The [Longwalls] is a Great Wonder only available to and buildable in {Athens}.
^
^- Makes its city resistant to propaganda.
^- Acts as a stealth attack barrier.
^- Provides 100% defence.
^- Makes one person in its city happy.​

fails to include the fact that the building produces one Imperia Trireme every six turns. Which is good, as I can now safely advance technologically with no fear for the future.

 

[Keroro]

Did the people of Asia Minor rise up in the face of your superior culture, wisdom and power? Or is it now too late for them?

Yes. Yes they did. They should not have done so. Report follows.
__________________________

Arbitrator Kerorio, reporting from Apamea, former colony of Phrygia.

Your excellencies.

I am proud to report that the Phrygian uprising is now at an end. In truth, there is little to report. The Phrygians were unable to bring any allies to their campaign, and with the freedom to concentrate our superior forces we brought a quick end to the fools. If any remain then they are our slaves, or have fled beyond our current sphere of operations. The only delaying factor here was the terrain itself, which is mountainous in the extreme. I fear that it will take a great effort to develop the lands to a productive level, but of course the huge numbers of slaves we have captured will help.

Our commanders request permission to proceed directly to attack positions around the Bithnys in the north and the Ionian cities of the western coast. I have given most units permission, though some toxotis and gymnitos units remain to combat the barbaroi that have immediately moved in to the unclaimed wilderness areas left by our razing tactics.

I await any further instructions.

In triumph, in honour.

Your Arbitrator, Kerorio.

 

[Rambuchan]

Don't tell me you're now tempted into going for the Domination Victory, Kerorio??? The example and legend of those ancient Asian imperialists must be infecting your ways...

The Long Walls entry, Ram:

^The [Longwalls] is a Great Wonder only available to and buildable in {Athens}.
^
^- Makes its city resistant to propaganda.
^- Acts as a stealth attack barrier.
^- Provides 100% defence.
^- Makes one person in its city happy.​

fails to include the fact that the building produces one Imperia Trireme every six turns. Which is good, as I can now safely advance technologically with no fear for the future.

This was spotted and fixed ages ago.

Thank you for the screenies. Good stuff. You've played a good game it seems. Very much in the spirit of Athenian history. If you're able to include the mini-map in future screenies that would be mighty helpful as it shows me and others what the AI civs have been up to.

Regarding the Athenian unit observations:

The thing to bear in mind is that Athens, though once mighty and powerful, did overstretch itself and saw its star wane toward the end of the time period. The Spartans put them back in their place with the Pelopponesian War, then Thebes opened an amphora of whoop ass on them and the Macedonians really had them (and pretty much everyone else) under the sandal.

So it wouldn't be realistic to have them be really mighty into the Hegemonic Era, though I've really given them much in that era with the whole Leagues feature. Basically, they must trade off whatever glory they managed to establish in the Classical Era, which is very easy to do really. That goes for their use of the Imperial Trireme over the Navarch Trireme (I'm with King Coltrane. You'd be a mug to upgrade them to the Navarch Trireme!) and their use of the Athenian Hoplite vs. the Thorakites.

The note on them not having the Horse Transport is an interesting one though. I see my units excel sheet does have them down to have the Horse Transport. But I must have decided against it at some point. I don't recall now what the logic was behind not giving it to them but I'm guessing the superiority of the Imperial Trireme and its ability to carry all kinds of units must be the explanation. Once that comes along there really isn't any need at all to build or use the Horse Transport. Though there is an extra tech to research to make that leap and they're without up till that point.

I'm open to thoughts from guys and girls who've played through with Athens and found the lack of naval horse transporting in the early Classical Era feeling a bit weird.

 

[Takhisis]

I was just posting one I could find, Ram, I have a few more but I can't find them .
I'll just have to browse through the pedia at random.

As for gameplay, the Lydoi are hot on my heels in the Tribute race. Conquering the Kykladitai and possibly the Chalkideis will be a must, so I'm planting forests across the land border with the Lydoi to keep their cavalry out.

 

[Keroro]

Don't tell me you're now tempted into going for the Domination Victory, Kerorio??? The example and legend of those ancient Asian imperialists must be infecting your ways...

Tempted. But ultimately I fear I shall hit the tribute victory earlier.

Ionia was slightly tougher than the previous wars, though to be honest I expected that. I've had to advance slowly. A report from the head of the southern war follows, received late in 267 BC, shortly before his execution.
________________

Sires.

Your missive on the speed of our advance has been received by the arbitrators and understood. They express regret, but our forces were not prepared for the hoplite defenders that the Ionians had mustered. Their cities are well defended and many are on rivers, leaving out forces the choice between costly frontal assaults and dangerous river crossings in the face of the enemy. Thus far our casualties have been light, this would not be the case if the conquest was made at rash speed.

The new Thorakites formations have been superbly utilised in conjunction with our siege engines. However this warfare takes time. Five major cities have been captured, and we begin to close in on the rest.

The Karians have indeed chosen this moment to meddle in the affair. Their forces are not strong or numerous though. Once the main Ionian cities are taken we shall make short work of them.

It is known to us that further forces are not available due to the new offensive against the Bithyneis in the north. I vow that we will not require further forces.

A drawing from our chief artist is attached below. The artist would have me praise the standard of the parchment now produced from Pergamon. Much better than the poor quality papyrus sent to us from Egypt in years past. The drawing clearly shows to the south the naval forces dispatched with hypaspist support to capture Baryla from the Ionians.

Victory shall be ours soon! Just not right now...

With respect and valour.

Your most humble servant.

 

[Rambuchan]

A fine report, from a capable commander. You have expanded your peoples' lands considerably and reduced many of your neighbours to slavery. I doubt either failure or ostracism shall befall you.

PS. The Macedonians have been raping the Thracians!

 

[Takhisis]

Thrace usually beats Macedon in early wars, then gets its arse handed to them unless they take Phillip out in the first attack. Both declared war on me but instead of attacking Athens' possessions in Chalkidiké, Thassos or Pangaio they head for Euboea by sea and for Attica by land.

 

[Takhisis]

Greetings, Historian Rambuchan of London. Here is an account, from the great city of Athens, fairest of the Ægean cities.

Strange incidents have been happening. The Lydoi have been rampaging deep into the hinterland of their Asian peninsula, fighting a previously unheard-of people known as the Phrygai. It pains us to say, Croesos' despotic, warmongering ways have netted him enormous riches, providing him with as much Tribute as ours, before running out of Phrygai to conquer. We hear he might have disturbed the so-called 'King of Kings' that lives in ancient Babylon, the same one Phillip and his son yearn to war against, if they could persuade the Hellenes to join their insane adventure.

Speaking of Phillip, his newfangled 'tactics' include formations of horsemen and javelineers. As if they were Scythians! Unthinkable! But it seems to have some success, for they have pushed deep into Thrake, and Tereios' reign looks about to come to a sorrowful end, as his Chersonesian kinsmen cheerfully let the vassals of Phillip through, hoping to appease him by doing so. The question remains: could such 'tactics' and weaponry be of use against civilised peoples?

Now the Marble Idols of the Kykladitai can be worshipped in a more democratic way, free of the taint of monarchy; and this makes our ships sail faster, for the Gods smile upon us, and the winds blow swifter for us, may Æolus be praised!
For this you should know, O Historian, that we have liberated the islands of Naxos, and Paros, and Delos too, from the grasp of Eurypilos. Their misguided inhabitants feel against the replacement of their King, but they will soon learn, that with greater freedom comes more trade, and thence come more wine, more olive oil, and better bread. What more could a man wish for, except some fried kalamaris with spiced herbs, and honey perhaps? Cloths, to keep their women happy and pretty? There is flax and wool in abundance for that.

But back in Attica, our sentries at the city of Brauron recently spotted a group of men with javelins coming East from Periander's domains, bearing the livery of the king of the Eliatai, Oxylus. At first it was thought that these were performers of this new form of theatre known as 'comedy' come to take part in our annual arts festival. But this proved not to be the case. These people apparently had the cheek to come in armed and, what's more, not only did they not keep off the grass, but they said they wanted our olives, our oil, our wine, our bread and our women -in that order, which most sensible men would agree to- and they wouldn't pay for them, not even at cost. This could not be, and our javelineers and theirs engaged in a great battle, with losses on both sides. But their losses were by far the heaviest, for they attempted to rush past our fortress of Brauron to the city of Athina, and She took it upon Herself to aid our valiant warriors, thus setting such uneven odds even. Not even the Ætolian training of their troops was enough to withstand the catastrophe, for it was as if they had no armour, and when surrounded in the hills overlooking the Aiginian gulf, they all perished, nearly to a man.
Slower troops have come to our border, with swords and shields and spears, but without any cover from their skirmishers, for these are already dead, or have taken flight back to their home. These troops are proving much harder to fight, but their King is surprisingly faint-hearted, for he's already willing to negotiate. He offers to pay no indemnity, but we expect that this is not a serious offer, just an opener for a round of bargaining. I must tell you, good friend of mine and of my city, that, if all of this city's armies were to be gathered together, few could withstand them, save perhaps those of rich Croisos, or the hardy Spartans&#8230; perhaps Phillip's armies up in the North, although what good can a hrose be when climbing our hills and mountains? But don't repeat this aloud, for envy would grow into the hearst of many.
Yet we trust to Æolus once again, for one of our Imperial Triremes has rounded the Spartan-controlled channel of Kythera, and is nearly at cape Tainaron, and the Messenian gulf is now threatened, may the cursed hill-dwellers regret their allegiance to this uncivilised King Oxylus! Maybe this is what has made this puny king of theirs so&#8230; indecisive?

Hoping that you might come to our next yearly festival,

&#932;&#945;&#954;&#967;&#943;&#963;&#953;&#963; , Strategos of Athinai.​

​

Well, Ram, hope you enjoyed that. I must tell you that I simply engage all the soundtrack on VLC media player and hope for the best, as I can change the order of the tracks and listen to the ones that come later in the game.
Foresting borders slows people down, and when I become able to barricade them I'll try a swipe at Lesbos, or at the Chersonessos. There's three departments of the Nine-Ways Garrison, two around Pangaio and one on Thássos, and this has enabled me to send down an Imperial Trireme with seven Hypaspists. They will remove the last of king Eurypilos' loyalists from their sea fortresses, and bring peace to the Galaxy Ægean.
The Tribute race's very tight indeed, but a further Lodge of the Episkopoi or two will suffice, as well as our military being bolstered by a Serpent Column -if we can conquer southern Messene from the Eliatai!

 

[Keroro]

Tak - enjoyed the last couple of reports.

PS. The Macedonians have been raping the Thracians!

Yes. There will be another screenie coming up to show the extent of their success. I believe that the Macedonian Cavalry unit is giving them a leg up even before they reach the last age. The Macks have done very well in this particular game, and the three major powers in the world are Sparta, Macedon and Aiolia.

Cross thread reply - would the pair of books you've read recently be Herodotus and Thucidides by any chance?

Another report below, from the successor of the last unfortunate commander.
__________________________________

Sires.

News from the southern borders. The last significant Ionian cities have fallen. The final defenders are land-locked and unlikely to hold much longer. I can declare the end of major combat operations against the Ionians.

Karia is in terror and unable to mount any defence against us. It is a surprise that they have maintained their small kingdom for hundreds of years. They shall last only a few more years now that their hill towns inland have been overrun.

We have received word that Zeus, Apollo and Aphrodite have been appearing with ever greater regularity to people all over Aiolia. This is to be expected since we are the most devout of all the Hellenes. I must report that I myself have likewise been visited, by the great and terrible Ares. He said unto me:

'Sixty thousand. Not bad! But keep fighting Keronius. The Aiolian Empire shall not be maintained by timidity but through war.'

It is oracular in its wording of course, who can know the meanings of the Gods. Sixty thousand! What could it mean? Our forces number vastly more than that. However I take this message as a sign that our civilising task is not yet done.

The commanders here suggest that we push our advantage. They are confident that what remains of the Lydians and Phrygians can be overwhelmed in a few short years and at minimal cost. A parchment of the local situation is enclosed with this report showing how simple this task would be. I support this action and request your majesties declare our intentions to the Lydian and Phrygian ambassadors.

However your majesties command my every action, and the actions of all Aiolians. I await your instructions.

In victory.

Arditrator Keronius.
In Baryla, on the southern coast.

 

[Rambuchan]

You guys are killing me with these reports. They are simply brilliant. Some truly awesome writing in Takhisis's last one in particular.

Cross thread reply - would the pair of books you've read recently be Herodotus and Thucidides by any chance?

They don't call you lightning for nothing. Xenophon's "Hellenica" would be a natural third, leading directly on from Thucydides's "History of the Peloponessian War".

In the Pedia entry for Historia tech you can read my summation of Herodotus and Thucydides's differing approaches to history and a indeed a few ramblings about History in general. I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on this fundamental matter for all history (and civ) fanatics.

 

[Takhisis]

A further missive to Historian Rambuchan of London:
Recently, the war against the Eliatai has been concluded satisfactorily, mostly due to thei poor planning. Some workers were captured and recaptured on the very last day, so they got no spoil at all. The people of Messene have controlled the Spartan tribes near our newly acquired possessions, but we trust that such people will either flee or join us in the face of our arts and poetry, and the edges of our blades.
Down south, Eurypilos has fled and his kingdom vanished, but we fear that he might have come to reside at Croisos' halls, and poisoned the old ruler's mind, for Cimmerian mercenaries in his employ have stormed through the forests and, even though no herald has come to declare war upon us as is proper civilised custom, there can be no doubt as to their purpose, for where else would they go? Moreover, transport ships have recently landed more of these coarse horsemen on the island of Samos. We fear some of our cities on the Asian coast may fall, and we should act ere they be made too strong to be recovered, but our citizens might have to temporarily pay obeisance to the Asiatic King. Oh that Darius would come out from the East and free the Hellenes in the coast from such tyranny!

You guys are killing me with these reports. They are simply brilliant. Some truly awesome writing in Takhisis's last one in particular.

Well thanks! This comment has earned you a prize. Check your inbox!

 

[stico]

................

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi stico

It's not a stupid question at all. The answer is fairly complex, or rather there are lots of simple answers. Your mod is suffering from unacceptably long turn times and this one isn't because:

- Problem: The map is huge.
- Solution: The Hegemon map has been cropped. So it's a bit smaller. But only a little bit.

- Problem: There are many islands on the map. The computer takes a very very long time to calculate all the possible trade routes each turn. With naval harbour trade, and lots and lots of islands, this is made even more complex and crippling for inbetween turn times.
- Solution: There is no sea trade in Hegemon. That has been disabled and air trade functions instead.

- Problem: Communications trading, with those pop ups, also slows down turn times.
- Solution: I have delayed comms trading in Hegemon. Delayed not eliminated because you still need it.

- Problem: The bigger the map, the more cities. That means more calculation of trade routes (and other stuff) for the computer inbetween turn times.
- Solution: I have increased the population cost of settlers and they remain high throughout the game (no late game cheap colonist type unit). This means fewer settlers and thus a lower number of cities are built.

- Problem: Too many barbarians slow things down too.
- Solution: I took out goody huts (also for tech popping reasons) and the cropped map mean there are fewer barbarians appearing. Very fast units were added for civs in Asia Minor, where there's lots of empty land, so barbarian stacks are wiped out more quickly.

- Problem: Too many units moving over too many tiles.
- Solution: Mountains are impassible to the vast majority of units.

I'm sure there are a few other things. But those are the main ones. Calculation of sea trade routes is, I believe, the single most taxing thing for the computer - especially on a map like this - and therefore the one thing that most dramatically impacts inbetween turn times.

It's important to note that doing just one of these things on their own will not drastically reduce inbetween turn times. You must do many of them, if not all, in order to see real results.