Hegemon

[Sasebo]

I DLed that pcx file from the last post on page 7, I hope it works for me(that is, I put it in the right place! ). It was an eyesore when that bug popped up in my game as Sparta.

I tried a couple of abortive games with Corinth and Thebes(so THAT'S where Thebes was! I always thought they were talking about the city in Egypt. ), but I didn't get very far in either one. I guess I wasn't used to the starting-from-one-city game, I have mostly played scenarios where you have many cities at the start lately. They certainly are packed in like sardines down there, aren't they? Though that does seem to help them in the tech trading department, both of those are usually riding the lead in the tech race, while poor people like Euboia and the Elins are usually backwards.

I played a game as Sparta on the level below Emperor(I'm not very good at the regular build up game, FYI), and though it was a bit slow starting, it got pretty easy pretty quickly. Once you build your Great Retria wonder and the Xiphomosis start popping out, it get very bad for your near neighbors, a lot of whom are backwards in tech and therefore have chumps to defend with. By the time they got decent defenders I had two armies up, and it was still very easy. I stopped playing it fairly early, as I had mauled everyone around me but the Elin, who I was knocking on the door of. I'd squelched Thebes a bit and had just taken Athens. I had left everyone with at least one city so I would not get the reputation hit for destroying their civ, but I could easily have wiped them out instead. I hadn't even filled up all of the home region yet! I had 2.5 times as many tribute points as the second ranked civ, but I had not met Makedonia or any of the eastern powers yet; did I quit too early? You know I didn't have all that many troops, it was the two armies that made the difference. I used a third leader for a Temple to the Gods, three armies would have been too much. That Great Retria may be a bit too much, I was fielding 6-3-1s while the AI around me had 2-2-1s at best. It was a slaughter, I had the wonder produced units way before I got the tech for Xiphomosis. Oh, and that second city not being built on the river is probably because they wanted to include that Dioscuri Cult resource in the city radius. I had three cities down there, all of which were one square away from it, and thus couldn't build Spartan Camps. Not that I needed them though.

I'm now a bit further in a game as Athens. I wanted to try building those League buildings at least once, which is why I picked another high-end civ right after Sparta and Thebes. I also upped the difficulty one notch to Emperor too.

Well the early game was somewhat hairy. The AI built more cities quicker then I could, and both Thebes and Corinth showed up right on my doorstep. I was terrified someone would try to come over into Attica and steal all "my" resources; they didn't though. I was running really weak, and only had those 1-1-1 guys, and a couple Gymnatoi or whatever they are for defense, and it seemed like everyone and their mother wanted to try and wring tribute from me. I told them all to go fly a kite, so I had about 5-6 fake wars going at one point. Eventually I got the Logchophoros and made peace with most of them cheaply. Sparta being the exception, they held on to the war for a long time, and demanded huge tribute. The FINALLY showed up on my border in force. I killed a small stack, then decided to make peace, because I could see lots more coming, and I am tied up in a war with Euboia and don't have the troops(yet) to defend against them. So I buy them off...and next turn I see they own Corinth and the city just west of me. Ouch. Poor Corinth. I think I've created a monster; I kept them at war for an absurd amount of time, so they have been busily making troops in Always War mode, and now they've engulfed Corinth too. We could use a culture flip or two right about now. They've got a ton of cities, a huge army, and they don't like me.

Euboia was the very first nation to demand tribute off of me, and I never forgot that. They also always seem to end up on the short end of the tech race too, and they have horsies! So I have built up three Athenian Camps, the Temple of Aphrodite and Poseidon, and I have been making hay on the Island to the east. They have a city on an Island farther to the east that I want, but the fools won't give it to me for peace, so I may just have to crush them. I also have the one lingering war with Makedonia from a refused tribute demand, and Thebes helpfully declared on them a turn or two after that war started(Did that war start because of mine I wonder?). Once I get Euboia in hand, I am wondering whether I should go through Thebes, jump Thebes, or leave them alone and try to get some of the islands that I see that the other AI are gobbling up right now. Here I am stuck in a war with these doodlebugs while everyone else is getting rich.

I went with Monarchy, but maybe I should have tried Diarchy? My capital is in the far NW, and then everything else is stretched out to the east, very awkward. I'm going to need that FP in a good spot for sure when I can build it. My plnas had been to try and win a tribute game, and maybe I will still be albe to manage it, who knows. The Spartans of all people stole the Temple of Hera from me, how ironic. Their Capital is a beast, they have Temple of Artemis there too. Though I am happy with the two I did get, believe me. Incidentally, why does the Temple of Aphrodite produce such good warriors? You would think that would be more of an Ares thing...

Random notes: The Cyclades city of Samos seems to be a wonder building powerhouse. It's built several in both of my two longer games.

Ithake and that other Island civ in the west seem to do OK, but they do build in some weird spots. I've seen several inland cities, where they don't have any ports on the coast.

What you do with you starting ship(if you have one) makes a big difference in how your game goes. I sent my Athenian curragh west; that might not have been a smart thing to do, though it got me contact with the Peleponessian civs. On that note, I have yet to see any of the eastern or central Island nations yet. I imagine Crete should intrude on use sooner or later.

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi Guys, apologies for the delayed reply. I've been stacked with work lately and this flat purchase is all hotting up now. Rest assured that I have at least been ploughing through the reams and reams of Civilopedia entries that still need to be written. I'm really pleased with what's been laid down with those so far.

Takhisis - Seems like you've been playing quite a deft game, good sir. That you've nearly caught up with Lydia on the Tribute Points is a very good thing. The civs in Asia Minor have far fewer sources of regular tribute (prophets and wine). So, once they've completed their conquest of Asia Minor, Lydia's Tribute Points should begin to plateau and you'll be able to overtake them. Unless they mount a naval invasion of the islands and mainland Greece that is...

Answers to some of your points and questions:

- Soundtrack - I mentioned it already, I've prepared a breathtakingly beautiful, authentic, immersive, epic soundtrack. In fact, you could listen to just that and be taken through a musical version of Ancient Greek history. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.

- Athens can't build the Merchant Galley - That's because the Imperial Trireme is superior to it in every way. Why would you want to build a lesser vessel?

- Why is the Spartan Xiphomakos 10 shields cheaper than the other Xiphomakoi? - Because they are Sparta. It's one way of making them the beefcake. The AI needed that kind of help. On the other hand, when humans play as Sparta they should crank the difficulty level right up as far as they dare.

- Aiolians have their Camps in asia Minor? - Yes, that's where they should be. They are not Aetolia. They are Aiolia.

- An amphora for the Libation Wine unit - That's a really good suggestion. There is a clay pot being used for the War Fire unit already. I don't know of any others like it. But I guess that could be used. What do you think?

 

[jlvfr]

- Soundtrack - I mentioned it already, I've prepared a breathtakingly beautiful, authentic, immersive, epic soundtrack. In fact, you could listen to just that and be taken through a musical version of Ancient Greek history. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.

Anyway we can listen outside of the game? I really don't like to listen to music in games...


And congratulations on this amazing scenario. Imho, it's extremely well done, specially the research part. I had no idea there were so many factions and city states!

What a work of art!

 

[Rambuchan]

Sasebo - Hello and thank you for posting. It's really great to hear from players. So many people DL, play and don't bother saying anything. That's disappointing for me and doesn't help to improve the game. So, again, thank you.

Responses to your post, let me know if I've missed anything you wanted to know about:

- City Graphics pcx - Hope that file did the trick. They've all been sorted out for the upgrade.

- One city starting - Yes, I appreciate this is quite unusual. Most other scenarios and my previous one started with many cities. I went for the one city start for everyone for a few reasons: (a) I was greatly impressed by TAM, which had everyone start with one city and yet somehow they all developed into the empires that existed in history. I was keen to do the same with Hegemon and like to think I've pulled it off. (b) It's fitting for the beginning of the time period, ie. the collapse of the Bronze Age civilisations. (c) Setting the civs up with the territories and cities they had at their peak would have shortened the game by confining it to a small timer period and, in my view, made the game less interesting. (d) There's more scope to re-create history in your own vision and yet still encounter the same historical challenges.

- Playing with Sparta was easy - Yes, they are a power house, but there are challenges for them in the later game. Those challenges come in the form of Makedonia, who are more or less unreachable while the likes of Sparta and others in the south crush their own neighbours. By the time Sparta et al have done that Makedonia start getting more powerful units, which results in a late game show down for ultimate victory. But I'm guessing you quite before that became apparent. The other challenge is Lydia. As you have been reading the thread, you will have realised by now their push for Domination victory. Anyway, regardless of all this, it is still advisable to crank it up many difficulty levels when playing as Sparta. Also, bear in mind that I've beefed up the likes of Elis and Euboea and others in the upgrade. Sparta and the other top flights will still dominate, but the lesser civs won't be such walkovers as in v1.3.

- Hairy game with Athens - Athens is quite a challenge to play with, both for human players and the AI, which has never been very good at playing maritime powers well. Such was the way the Athenian Empire came about and took shape. I hope I've provided enough guidance in the civilopedia for this and also through the design of the Delian League buildings. Let me know if you think further guidance is needed.

- Tips on playing as Athens - One should always seek to establish some early cities to stake out your terrain and have a base to go forward with. It's just one of the fundamentals in civ and Hegemon is no different in that regard. So some marking out of territory around Athens very early is required. ~ Remember that there are four spots where you can find Attic Tribes and build an Athenian Camp. So go ahead and crush Euboea and settle that little island near them with the fourth source of Attic Tribes on it. ~ The positioning of that fourth source of Attic Tribes, though quirky, is designed to set human and AI off on a maritime empire. You will need to continue in that general direction to start building some of the Delian League improvements. Over that way is where you'll be able to build League improvements such as the Tribute popping "Episkopoi Lodge" and the Navarch Trireme producing "Proxenoi Lodge". There's another good one on the island of Euboea itself. ~ Go ahead and just crush Thebes. They will only become a pain in your side and you should have the power to do it. Plus they have some rich land which will produce much tribute and units for you. ~ I've been giving Takhisis and others some other later game tips on playing as Athens fairly recently in the thread. So you can find more tips here. But go ahead and ask about other specifics and I'll be glad to share some insights.

- Two longer games that you've played?? - You mention you've played two longer games. I'm thinking that Athens is one of them, but was the other one with Thebes? If so, I'd be very interested to hear about how they played. I don't think anyone has said anything about playing with Thebes yet and I'd be interested to see how your experience with them measures up to my early test game with them.

 

[Sasebo]

Sorry, the other longer game was Sparta. I quit the Thebes game early since I felt I made a lot of mistakes early on, and I just wasn't ready for that kind of pressure cooker. I settled my first colonist too close to Athens, and they tried to backstab me early when I was fighting someone else. I was surviving with 3 cities but it looked pretty grim. I'm sure they are viable, but I am thinking an early war to gain some living space is absolutely necessary!

I've continued that Athens game, I am researching Literature now. Still behind the tech leaders since they love to share with each other but not me. I took 4 cities including their capital from Euboia, then made peace for that island to the SE they had colonised.

Thebes completed the Temple of Dionysus in that city next to Athens, which pretty much decided the issue of where to go next. They have been reduced to one city in their starting area, and 3-4 elsewhere. I honestly didn't mean to expand that far, that's just more to defend from Sparta, but I HATE culture flips with a passion, so I just had to keep going... It will also help me with trying for a tribute victory, I am behind Sparta, but have been gaining on them. I plan on making peace after I get that last local city, taking a couple of their weaker cities as tribute for peace, then gifting them to Euboia so I can push them off their home island without destroying them. Oh, and I was already heading off to those islands to the east anyway, so it's good to know I had the right idea. The only problem I see in the future is having to deal with Sparta or Makedonia at some point, but I have good troops. I need more Katepeltikon, those are wonderful!

I want to rebut someof the comments I saw earlier in the thread though, about people swimming in talents. I have finally gotten to a thousand with the help of the treasury, but I have had to do my own research pretty much, and money has been tight all the way. I have a ton of units to upgrade, but barely any money to do it! The AI have their little club at the top, a big mess of tech and cash poor nations below, and me stuck in the middle. Stupid Corinth has been reduced to the one island next to Athens, and they have two tech and almost as much gold as me.

I did finally get a chance to send a scout ship out, and met the Cyclades and Lydia and Troi. Oh, they have a LOT of cities! The SW area of the map is almost completely colonised now, so I expect wars to break out sooner or later.

I did notice some odd things while playing the last session. I had two cities on Euboia's home island, and I noticed I could build a temple there, W/O any marble! I looked in the city screen, and the resources available just didn't match up. It sraightened itself out after I made peace with Euboia and had a road connecting everything to their new capital. I have a trade port there now too since I plan on going back to war with them. If you want I can send you the save file, or you could walk me through how to post a screenshot instead if you want to see this for yourself.

Sparta is running around with Champions guarded by Hoplites, and I have seen Gymnitos running around on the Kyklades islands as I sailed by, so they are definitely building the auto production buildings. They completed lots of their civ specific wonders too.

 

[Takhisis]

Takhisis - Seems like you've been playing quite a deft game, good sir. That you've nearly caught up with Lydia on the Tribute Points is a very good thing. The civs in Asia Minor have far fewer sources of regular tribute (prophets and wine). So, once they've completed their conquest of Asia Minor, Lydia's Tribute Points should begin to plateau and you'll be able to overtake them. Unless they mount a naval invasion of the islands and mainland Greece that is...

How? Where would they attack? The Spartans have become war-mongerers and are attacking the Lydoi everywhere (and losing individual battles, but still). I guess I'll have to take Thassos from the Chalkidikeis by allying myself with the Spartans in the Great Northern War, then move south to Naxos, Delos has been mine from the beginning. I've taken Chíos so that's one less source of tribute for the Lydoi (and one more for me) and Lesbos is under the control of Troia. Thing is, Troia has been bribed by the Spartiates into attacking the Lydoi. On the ground.

Answers to some of your points and questions:

- Soundtrack - I mentioned it already, I've prepared a breathtakingly beautiful, authentic, immersive, epic soundtrack. In fact, you could listen to just that and be taken through a musical version of Ancient Greek history. Trust me, you won't be disappointed.

Hence my urgency.

- Athens can't build the Merchant Galley - That's because the Imperial Trireme is superior to it in every way. Why would you want to build a lesser vessel?

Because it comes earlier. Way earlier. Maybe it could upgrade to the Imperial Trireme? It's actually a disadvantage not to have Merchant Galleys… even without all the tech buffs and the ability to sustain yearly losses by bursts of Tribute it still takes near 20 turns.

- Why is the Spartan Xiphomakos 10 shields cheaper than the other Xiphomakoi? - Because they are Sparta. It's one way of making them the beefcake. The AI needed that kind of help. On the other hand, when humans play as Sparta they should crank the difficulty level right up as far as they dare.

yes, otherwise it's a gamebreaker for someone who has a slight grasp ong ame economics.

- Aiolians have their Camps in asia Minor? - Yes, that's where they should be. They are not Aetolia. They are Aiolia.

The confusion comes because either the Troians or the Lydoi exterminated the Aiolians right after the game started, so I've been thinking: where the hell are these people? I thought they were barbarians or something…

- An amphora for the Libation Wine unit - That's a really good suggestion. There is a clay pot being used for the War Fire unit already. I don't know of any others like it. But I guess that could be used. What do you think?

Just a static .pcx with an amphora in it would do, maybe someone could model one and render it (I'd love to give it a try after these exams), the clay fire pot would make a nice stand-in.

We could have a few static .pcx files for the rest as well, Taxation, Tribute, Hecatomb, would be very flavourful.

- Two longer games that you've played?? - You mention you've played two longer games. I'm thinking that Athens is one of them, but was the other one with Thebes? If so, I'd be very interested to hear about how they played. I don't think anyone has said anything about playing with Thebes yet and I'd be interested to see how your experience with them measures up to my early test game with them.

I intend to do some similar testing with the Thevaioi as well as -surprise!- the Dodekanesioi. Can I have Okeibos as my special hero?

 

[Takhisis]

I did notice some odd things while playing the last session. I had two cities on Euboia's home island, and I noticed I could build a temple there, W/O any marble! I looked in the city screen, and the resources available just didn't match up. It sraightened itself out after I made peace with Euboia and had a road connecting everything to their new capital. I have a trade port there now too since I plan on going back to war with them. If you want I can send you the save file, or you could walk me through how to post a screenshot instead if you want to see this for yourself.

Resource bug.

 

[Sasebo]

Ah, OK, I think I saw that mentioned way earlier in the thread.

I just started looking at the requirements for some of those Leauge buildings... Really? Wow, some of them are so bloody far away, no way is anyone going to get them all. I guess itis pick what you want and go for it? I'm not going for that Samian shipyard, no way in HELL am I going to get on the mainland next to the Lydoi!

My earlier plans went off without a hitch, and I sort of started messing with the Kyklades(got to keep those heros and champions busy or they will get up to mischief as you said in the pedia), when all of a sudden the Aetolians decided to sneak attack me. Why me?? They don't have a city anywhere near me, what did I do to them? I was able to fend them off though. So far. All these wars I have been fishing for a great Leader to get an army, and no luck.

I sort of agree with Takhisis on the ship issue, though what do you really need the merchant for? The Mycenean galley has been just fine for me, except for only carrying foot units. I DO want them for the sea superiority missions, there are a ton of ships running around, and I need to be able to swat some of them. The Mycenean galley just can't handle that job.

Makedonia is around, but not particularly large. The barbarians near them are the same size or larger. Asia minor has some pretty darn big civs, though their coastal troops are not impressive.

I think the regular Greek hooplites might be better with +1 HP; it just seems a bit too wide a gap between them and the Spartan/Athenians. The stats are fine, it is the HP disparity that seems a bit much. Also, why do palisades cost 1 talent in upkeep, while walls don't have any? I see City Guards is even more expensive. Couldn't you just make palisades require lumber to build, and no upkeep?

Takhisis, where did you put your Forbidden Palace? I am thinking Theboi, or somewhere on the Euboia island, but the city spread for Athens is just lousy.

Edit: Why does the Trade House say it will increase happy faces like a market in the pedia, but I don't see the effect in game?

 

[Takhisis]

I just started looking at the requirements for some of those Leauge buildings... Really? Wow, some of them are so bloody far away, no way is anyone going to get them all. I guess itis pick what you want and go for it? I'm not going for that Samian shipyard, no way in HELL am I going to get on the mainland next to the Lydoi!

A small-sized fleet of Mycenean Galleys with heroes and Hoplites and you're all set, I have to conquer the island of Samos itself before hopping accross, I'll use samos as a stepping stone for the big prize and I have a leader waiting to be turned into a League improvement, either in Samos or up in Thassos.
[QUOTESasebo]My earlier plans went off without a hitch, and I sort of started messing with the Kyklades(got to keep those heros and champions busy or they will get up to mischief as you said in the pedia), when all of a sudden the Aetolians decided to sneak attack me. Why me?? They don't have a city anywhere near me, what did I do to them? I was able to fend them off though. So far. All these wars I have been fishing for a great Leader to get an army, and no luck.[/QUOTE]

I sort of agree with Takhisis on the ship issue, though what do you really need the merchant for? The Mycenean galley has been just fine for me, except for only carrying foot units. I DO want them for the sea superiority missions, there are a ton of ships running around, and I need to be able to swat some of them. The Mycenean galley just can't handle that job.

The thing is, my tech path (mostly oriented to depriving the AI of wonders that would put them too far ahead in the tech race) has meant that I still haven't got Seafaring and won't for a great many turns. I'll also have to endure a six-turn revolution. So, all in all, for at least 12 to 15 turns I'll be with a stagnating fleet.

Makedonia is around, but not particularly large. The barbarians near them are the same size or larger. Asia minor has some pretty darn big civs, though their coastal troops are not impressive.

The Makedonai's units become more and more powerful as the game draws on, I recommend crippling them if at all possible. Follow my posts on the anty-Lydia campaign for more details, but be prepared for alliances and counterattacks.

Takhisis, where did you put your Forbidden Palace? I am thinking Theboi, or somewhere on the Euboia island, but the city spread for Athens is just lousy.

Euboia? Being Athens? No way. Place it wherever the centre of your colonies is, perhaps near Delox/Naxos (that'd be the Kykladian Kingdom's sphere of influence) or somewhere along the Spórades, perhaps somewhere near Lesbos, Chíos or Sámos, depending on where your beachhead has been established.

Also remember that there is an Imperial Retreat (same effects as Forbidden Palace) available with the Imperialism tech.

 

[Takhisis]

Rambuchan, since we're speaking of Samos, I see Pottery but not the famous Wines. Why is this?

I also think the resources itself should be called 'Grapes' as their presence enables the construction of a Vineyard.

 

[Sasebo]

Not sure if I could pull that off, every time I try to go after some of the islands, the idiots on the mainland start something with me. Makedonia I am not concerned with, they are only medium sized and there are a lot of civs between me and them. They just DOWed the Chalkidies, so I will keep an eye on that front to see how they progress.

The beast I have to deal with is Sparta, who is literally next door to Athens and armed for bear. I was at war with a couple other civs, and their troops suddenly piled un next to Theboi...and stopped there, about 20 of them. I ordered them to leave, so that at least they would start the war, but they agreed to go! Two turns later they showed up with a demand for tribute, I figure this has to kick it off...but they back down. I can hardly believe it. This has forced me to keep most of my troops on the mainland though, so I have been employing some of them to beat on the Lokris, who were one of the civs to declare on me. Still no leader. If I just had an army I would sign up everybody and try to pull Sparta's fangs a bit. Might be suicide though.

I am ahead in tribute now, so I might just focus on that. Most of the things that the league buildings require are already owned by other people. My one big fear is that Sparta will go banzai, clear out all the Peloppenesus, and then come gunning for me with more then I can handle. I also drew a 6 turn anarchy for Democracy, which also was the first 6 turns of my golden age as the Temple of Zeus set it off. I got seafaring just before that happened though, the AIs still have a narrow tech lead on me(a few of them), but I am mostly caught up. Ithake of all civs is still near the tech lead, go figure.

Speaking of which, I call dibs on Ithake when Rambuchan puts up the next version!

 

[Takhisis]

Make wonder cities a priority. Join the Macedonians against Chalkidiké and pull the Spartans into it, everybody will eventually declare war on the Chalkidikeis at Sparta's behest. meanwhil build a fleet and conquer Thassos to build the Delian League improvement there. If you can snag the Ambraciotes from the Ithakeis, give it a try; it's easier if you have a city on the Corinthian gulf shore. Then wait for the Lydoi to start rampaging through Asia Minor and take the side of whoever's losing, like Karya or Phrygia or Bythinia, and again pull Sparta into it. They will love it and they will send 2.2.2 snail-powered Biremes which will fight it out somewhere in the Nótioi Sporades or the Kyklades against the Lydoi navy, also composed of snail-powered Biremes. Just go for it and grab as many islands as possible, on each island you place a couple defenders and you keep a couple Mycenean Galleys patrolling the place with a couple Heroes or Champions or whatever your best attackers are. Anyone landing on one of you islands will be destroyed quickly by them, you might have to use a Logchophoros or Hoplite to finish some of the fast units, but the system more or less works.

 

[Rambuchan]

Sasebo - Some answers to your posts:

- You quit your Thebes game - Fair enough. Mistakes can be made early, especially when new to a scenario. Let me say though that Thebes is a very viable civ to play with. They have good chances of winning the game and, in my opinion, taking it to Athens and Phocis early is a good way to go with them. You could play Thebes on your normal level or even perhaps one up.

- You crushed Thebes - Good work! I think that was a very good move. You'll have much prime land now, to raise tribute and troops. Guessed you've already realised and started on that anyway.

- Leaving rivals with one city. Why? - I don't understand why you and Takhisis leave civs with one city. I never do this, if I can help it. I always finished them off, primarily because I too hate culture flipping with a vengeance (though I do think it's a good realistic dynamic to have in the game). If you wipe them out you guarantee no culture flipping. Also, totally annihilating your enemies is a good way of decluttering diplomacy, the map and your plans. And, finally, I'm not so sure there is a rep hit for wiping civs out. I might be wrong on this but I've never played civ with this in mind and never seemed to suffer.

- I need more Katepeltikon, those are wonderful! - Yes, I like those too. I'm a real artillery junkie. However, there have been some alterations to artillery for the next version. I'm sorry to say that the Katapeltikon has been limited. Only Cornith gets it, as their UU. For the others I've brought in Battering Rams and Siege Machines instead. They are more historically accurate and the unit graphics for them are pretty cool. You'll still have the Lithobolos and Fire Catapult.

- Swimming in talents - I too found I had a lot of cash when I played games on v1.3 but I had plenty of uses for it, especially on upgrades, rush building and purchasing those all important Hegemonic Resources when going for victory. I've made some minor but perhaps very significant changes to the way the economy works for the upgrade. The two important ones are: Techs are more expensive and, perhaps most significantly, the Mint improvement can now only be built if you have Silver in the city radius. The idea here is to have more specialised cities, which is always cool. This change alone could well have a very big impact on how much cash a civ can generate. Anyway, I've obviously put down many more sources of silver than in v1.3, but the total amount of Mints in your empire will definitely drop on account of this change and cash won't be so readily generated.

- The guys out east - Yes, Phrygia, Lydia, Persia, Assyria, Babylon, in fact all those guys out east had way bigger empires than any of the Greeks managed, until the coming of Alexander III that is. Even Athens at its height was small fry compared to, say, Persia. People bang on all the time about how mighty and glorious was the victory of the Greeks over Persia. But if you look to Persian records about their conflict with the Greeks there is hardly a peep. To the Persians it was a little hiccup on the edge of their sphere of influence that didn't really matter all that much.

- Resource Bug - So you've seen this now. As you've realised, it just causes a bit of confusion. I'm sorry about that. I think it's a small price to pay for the extra intrigues and pleasures that come from having many resources and busting through the stupid arbitrary limit Firaxis put in place. The two important things to remember about this issue are: (a) They are phantom resources, you can't do anything with them (b) As soon as you connect a city to your trade network, eg. with a Trade Port, everything reverts back to normal.

- League Buildings - Oh yes, they aren't easy. I'm not going to give it to you on a plate! Especially as they grant serious power. I have, however, made things a little easier for the upgrade. Firstly, given that they are typically built in far flung, corrupt places, they are just way too expensive in v1.3, so I've reduced their costs a bit. Secondly, the one over on Samos has already been noted as pretty much unbuildable, or at least fiendishly complex to pull off. I've fixed that in the upgrade with a repositioning of the required resources. Also - You're right, you don't need to build them all. You can just go for the ones you want, or none at all, though I think they're too much fun not to build at least a few. These League Wonders and Buildings really come into their own on higher difficulty levels. That's when they really shine and when you will need them.

- Aetolians jumped you - Yes, they will do that. In fact, during the Peloponnesian War, the Aetolians pulled off a famous victory against the mighty Athenian army. They were a rag tag bunch of skirmishers and javellineers pitched against the crack troops of Athens, but they still defeated them. It was the running and smashing and running and smashing approach and their use of high ground that did it. Hoplites preferred proper orthodox battles on flat land, with troops facing each other and standing toe to toe in combat. Indeed, much of Greek warfare was quite ritualised and formalised in this way. Aside from this digression, it's worth noting that Aetolia were described by Thucydides as quite a backward, barbaric, plunder loving band of Greeks, who took quite some time to civilise themselves in the manner of the other Greek poleis. But they did so eventually and rose to be one of the greatest Greek powers before the Romans came and crushed them all.

- Makedonia is around, but not particularly large. - It's not their size that you should judge them on. As Takhisis has said, it's the quality of their units. They just get more and more power as the game goes on until, by the Hegemonic Era, they are by far the most powerful units in the game. Whether or not they march them south and use them to carve a big empire remains to be seen however. The AI has somewhat disappointed me on that front actually. I've made some changes for the upgrade to help the AI become a bit more land hungry with Makedonia. But do please keep me updated on how they progress in your game. Any notes would be most helpful.

- Why do palisades cost 1 talent in upkeep, while walls don't have any? - I'm not sure. I will look into it.

- Tradehouse not causing happiness - It does function just like a marketplace in the vanilla game. So the happiness effect increases only when you use the "Happy Faces / Luxuries" slider. Sorry can't remember its proper name. It's the one on the F1 screen underneath the tech/cash slider.

- I call dibs on Ithake when Rambuchan puts up the next version! - Of course you can! I'd be very interested to find out how people enjoy the mini-game-within-the-game that's coming with them.

 

[Rambuchan]

Takhisis - Thanks for filling in with advice for Sasebo. I am quite limited on time this month so your help is much appreciated. Now, responses:

- Lydia don't have anywhere to gain land off their coast - Good stuff! Then you've handled them well. I presume their Tribute Points are begin to plateau then?

- Merchant Galleys for Athens - Sorry but I think you've caused your own problems here. Your Imperial Triremes are only coming late because you're avoiding those techs. Neglecting the naval techs with Athens isn't the wisest policy.

- Static .pcx with an amphora - You must be joking. That would be very lame indeed. I'd rather double up properly animated units than use static pcxs. Anyway, I think I will use that Greek fire clay pot for the Libation Wine unit. It's a very good suggestion. Thank you.

- Playing with the Dodekanesioi - They will be tough and dropping it a couple of difficulty levels would be advisable. I probably haven't done them justice in the way I've designed things. But I'd be most interested to hear about how they play.

- Can I have Okeibos as my special hero? - Sorry, don't know what you are referring to.

- Samos, I see Pottery but not the famous Wines. Why is this? - For the gameplay reason I mentioned: To give the Asiatic civs too many sources of Tribute would upset the balance. They get Domination Victory leg up, the Greeks get Tribute Victory leg up. That you don't get your Samos wine is a small price to pay I think.

- The resources itself should be called 'Grapes' - I think that's a very good suggestion!

 

[Rambuchan]

Sorry jlvfr, I missed this earlier.

Anyway we can listen outside of the game? I really don't like to listen to music in games...

Yes there is. The music files are found in the 'Build' and 'Diplo' folders that are located within the 'Sounds' folder. The 'Music' text file, found in the 'Text' folder, shows you the running order.

There is controversy about people including music in their scenarios. When I have time - which frankly I don't right now - I would happily debate the issue. My views on the matter are clearly shown by (a) the fact I will be including music for a soundtrack in the upgrade, (b) the fact that the music file names display the artist and track name and (c) there will be a credits text file which also names the artists.

And congratulations on this amazing scenario. Imho, it's extremely well done, specially the research part. I had no idea there were so many factions and city states!

What a work of art!

I am humbled and delighted by this. Thank you.

I'm also quite tickled by it. If you're saying this about the version that's up now, which doesn't contain all the polished graphics, civilopedia entries, and many other extras, then, well....

 

[Sasebo]

Let me say though that Thebes is a very viable civ to play with. You could play Thebes on your normal level or even perhaps one up.

Agreed, though they are a step behind the other 3 top flight Greeks I would say. The trouble is I never bothered to figure out what my normal level is on vanilla Civ, so I am always a little up in the air on that point. Sparta seemed easy on the level below Emperor, but Athens on Emperor has been quite the challenge. Both of those are top flight civs though, I suspect the weaker ones would be harder.

However, there have been some alterations to artillery for the next version. I'm sorry to say that the Katapeltikon has been limited. Only Cornith gets it, as their UU. For the others I've brought in Battering Rams and Siege Machines instead. They are more historically accurate and the unit graphics for them are pretty cool. You'll still have the Lithobolos and Fire Catapult.

It wasn't just the bombard, it was the blitz and movement/attack that I loved. I don't think the others will be as much fun, but the seige machines should be interesting.

To the Persians it was a little hiccup on the edge of their sphere of influence that didn't really matter all that much.

Yes of course, the losers always say that...

BTW, it wasn't the Aetolians, it was Epeiros; I do get them all confused sometimes! The Aetolians have now stepped up and tried to move in for a sneak attack and declared when I told them to leave. This was after I had cleared all my other wars and started heading off to the Kyklades again now that I see where the Delian Tribute resources are. Why does this keep happening? Every time I start to shift troops to the islands, the mainland civs get thirsty for Athenian blood. I'm sure I can handle them, it is mostly Gymnitos. My only problem is if I don't rope Sparta into a war, someone will rope them in against me, which would be very bad. On the other hand, if I rope them in myself, they will just get bigger, and now I am in Democracy and I don't think I can last the full 20 turns of the treaty.

I've made some changes for the upgrade to help the AI become a bit more land hungry with Makedonia. But do please keep me updated on how they progress in your game. Any notes would be most helpful.

They lost one city south of their capital on the coast(Pydnia), but they took 3 or four from Chalkidies in a swath running east from their capital as well. Keep in mind Chalkidies had more cities to start. Maybe that stretched them a bit too far, it's only been 5-6 turns, so they could turn it around.

Tradehouse not causing happiness- It does function just like a marketplace in the vanilla game. So the happiness effect increases only when you use the "Happy Faces / Luxuries" slider. Sorry can't remember its proper name. It's the one on the F1 screen underneath the tech/cash slider.

I was talking about the happy faces that display in the box just to the right of the city improvement list on the city screen in the lower left; I have more then three, but am not getting any "bonus" happy faces from that improvement. I had no idea the luxury slider was part of that, I will double check.

Small pedia error in 1.3: The Constitution of Cleistethenes says it gives +1 ship movement, but in fact is flagged for +2. Speed 7 Imperial Triremes are niiiiice. If fact, if you run around "collecting" the wonders that give ship move bonuses, I bet you could get speed in the double digits. WOWEE!

Most of the civ specific minor wonders are adequate, but I think you ought to reconsider the one for Bythnia. Free scouts? They didn't complete it until 501 BC.... That just not fair to them. Give them bonus economy, or better city defense, they do have Lydia as a neighbor after all.

Oh, the other reasons for leaving a civ with one city, are that I am still trying to fill space with my colonists, and I don't have them to spare, or defenders for them. If I destroy them, it just leaves a blank space on the map, which someone else will come over and fill. Leave them alone and they will get enough culture from their new palace so you can take it instead. I had heard of the hit to diplomatic relations part too, and was being careful not to tick everyone off until I felt I could handle it. Better to leave small whipping boys who have already learned to fear you. Even as Sparta I tend to build a lot of improvements(I NEVER build enough troops. ) So I am not afraid of having a flip once they have 1 or two cities, I have more culture then they do.

Since this is a lot like vanilla civ, it has reminded me of how much I hate corruption. If I have to lose my government as Athens, I may just go to Diarchy and stay there. Have you ever considered setting some other buildings to reduce corruption? I've seen scenarios where they flag ALL of them to reduce it, and that works well. I know it isn't realistic, but it is way more fun! Also, what about the idea of giving regular hoplites +1 HP, did you miss that?

 

[Takhisis]

Imagine my excitement when I found someone had this as an avatar!

- Lydia don't have anywhere to gain land off their coast - Good stuff! Then you've handled them well. I presume their Tribute Points are begin to plateau then?

It's a matter of time until they're dragged into a war with Phrygia. Sparte made a peace with them last night (see next post) a few turns after I did, so now we're attacking the Chalkidikeis.

Sorry but I think you've caused your own problems here. Your Imperial Triremes are only coming late because you're avoiding those techs. Neglecting the naval techs with Athens isn't the wisest policy.

It was a conscious choice, but seeing others get better ships earlier is… un-Athenian.

You must be joking. That would be very lame indeed. I'd rather double up properly animated units than use static pcxs. Anyway, I think I will use that Greek fire clay pot for the Libation Wine unit. It's a very good suggestion. Thank you.

I forgot to say 'as a placeholder'. Of course it could should later be animated.

- Playing with the Dodekanesioi - They will be tough and dropping it a couple of difficulty levels would be advisable. I probably haven't done them justice in the way I've designed things. But I'd be most interested to hear about how they play.

All they need is having a terribly powerful Navy and perhaps a few extra tributes seeing as they were good traders. AND their almighty slingers which are a must. Slingers are nonexistent in this game! Perhaps the 'Rhodians' resource could be used for a couple wonders geerating Slingers and heavy triremes. If the Imperial Trireme is 5.4.3 and the later Navarch Trireme is 6.5.4 then you could have a 4.3.3 Rhodian Trireme to help. A Rhodian Shipyard could be built… and capturable.

- Can I have Okeibos as my special hero? - Sorry, don't know what you are referring to.

The Rhodians' representative in Asterix at the Olympic Games.

- Samos, I see Pottery but not the famous Wines. Why is this? - For the gameplay reason I mentioned: To give the Asiatic civs too many sources of Tribute would upset the balance. They get Domination Victory leg up, the Greeks get Tribute Victory leg up. That you don't get your Samos wine is a small price to pay I think.

Hmm, well, if it's balanced gameplay, unless we get a Samos faction, which cannot happen, then it's not a bad choice. Damn Firaxis for all the hardcoded limits.

I've been checking and both Ionia and Aiolia appear to have been razed very early by the Lydoi, perhaps even before Bythinia.

- The resources itself should be called 'Grapes' - I think that's a very good suggestion!

Thanks! Glad to help.

 

[Takhisis]

And another thing: I've been checking the ships' stats in the editor and the Navarch Trireme is *not* marked for the AI to use it as a transport, only as Naval Power.

 

[Sasebo]

Lydia in my game got the Temple of Ares... They have wiped out Phyrgia, and have just declared on Aiolia. Asia Minor already looks like a great blue blot. I am winning the tribute war right now, 17k+ to 13k+(almost 14), but I think they are still going to ramp up some.

The hoplites requiring pop is a good balancing factor; I need the defenders, but it means you can't grow your cities past size 6 very easily if you build them.

Makedonia retook the city they lost, and took several more from Chalkidies, but just this past turn it looks like the Chalkies have hit back in a city or two. Makedonia is still winning though.

The good news is Kyklades is folding like a house of cards, they only have two cities left. My war weariness has not kicked in yet, surprisingly. I plan on letting the WW reset after I finish with them, then I need to have a quick war with Kerkyra to get the last Delian tribute resource. The Kyklades built the cities on their home island such that the Delian Tribute there is useless. Can't raze them and start over, since I built my FP in their former capital, and the other city has their Wonder in it. I didn't get any extra ship move out of that one, darn!

I looked over the League improvements, some of them are a bit out of reach I think, but I am going for the Mines, since Phokis took the island offshore. Makedonia took the mainland ones, and I don't want to go there. I built a city on the island with the dyes and Samarian resources, so if anything should happen to Ionia I will be in place to build on that hill to get the shipyard.

Sparta has behaved themselves, they are busy with their little island empire, they have several 1 tile islands, which would be a pain to dig out with their hoplites there. They are using merchant galleys and triremes BTW, quite respectable actually.

I do have two Armies now, though I have not filled the second one yet. Champions all the way! I actually rushed the FP with my first one, since Leaders can't load on galleys, and I needed the FP more then I needed an army down in the Kyklades.

 

[Takhisis]

Better use the Leaders to build improvements and Forbidden palace IMHO.