Help for monarch difficulty?

[Heti123]

Hi, I really need some help on winning on monarch. I'm a semi-decent player, being able to win easily on noble, and I have even managed to win a prince game, but on monarch, I keep losing! Here are some examples:
1: I was playing as HC, small Pangea map. I managed to found Hinduism, and early rushed Julius Caesar, and I have even spread Hinduism to Cyrus and Alex, but Monty was the only Buddhist out there. I was planning to attack Monty, but then Cyrus attacked me out of the blue, at pleased. So I moved my army into Persian territory, but then Alex, who was also pleased, DOWd on me. So he took my main wonder city, as well as a few others, since most of my army is in Persian territory. So I made peace with Cyrus, and was ready to retrieve my cities, but then Monty DOWd on me too, and took my southern cities
2- I was about to build the SS Engine, but Mansa won a diplomatic victory. Also , I always seem to be behind in thech.
I understand the basics of the game such as cottage-farming, GP-farming, whipping, collateral damage, chopping...
The civics I usually run:
Government:Rep or US
Legal: Fs
Labor: Slavery
Religion:OR early game, theocracy when building an army, FR if I did not spread my religion enough.
Tactics I use: Lib race, Oracle CoL, Early rushing.
Traits I like:Fin,Ind,Cre,Phi

Help greatly appreciated!

 

[Gumbolt]

Hard to say without a save. The first mistake I can see is you are trying to start religions. You won't be able to do that on higher levels. The Ai will get their first every time. Then you are wasting hammers to spread the religion. You could be building worker, settlers, granaries or wealth instead.

If you are teching for a religion you are not researching techs to work food resources at start. This means when your worker is built around T12-15 it might not have anything to do.

I suspect the Ai bribed Alex into war on you. You have to be so careful when going to war. Some Ai won't plot at pleased. Other will go fist mode and decide to attack you.

Know your enemy.

You could of avoided this by requesting gold as a gift from pleased Ai. Once they pay tribute they can't attack you for 10 turns. You can only beg from each AI each 20 or so turns. Otherwise they will refuse you. E.g begging after 14 turns from the last beg will result in it being refused. If you ask for too much gold they will also refuse you. 50G is normally safe early on. Complex formula for begging.

Government - If you are not running HR at all you must be getting very lucky on building the mids each game.

I think you should play the maps more and ignore the religion side of things. So if you have a map with no happiness resources you know you need monarchy or mids asap. The same strategy for each map will never work.

As for Mansa diplomacy win. This could be UN or AP. Ap can be avoided if one Ai has no religion. Un is tougher. Without a save unlikely I can't really help there.

 

[Seraiel]

FS is a crap civic (FR too) . Run Buro, spread your Religion wisely and take up Pacifism below your prefered religious civics, it's very powerful and often the best civic possible. Don't worry about the extra cost for the army, it's a maintenance free civic, and you often save as much as the extra cost for units adds. With a small army, it's even a lot cheaper than OR, and you only need OR for heavy buildings-building, which is bad unless you go for Space, but even then, Pacifism is often the better Civic, because +100% on GP-generation is very very very powerful if you focus on Specialists, there's little that can beat an extra GP in CIV.

If you want to improve, best you post a savegame from 4000 BC and also screenshots, wait for advice, and only play small turnsets after you got enough advice. Monarch is still a very easy level and players in this forum are overall very skilled or informed and also very friendly. Many players will gratefully help you in becoming better. Play a 2nd game simultaniously, as waiting for good advice takes time.

 

[Jerrymander]

How many cities do you usually end up with? What is your normal beakers per turn at 1AD, 1000AD, and the end of the game? (Try to aim for 200, 500, then 1500-2000+ in the 1600/1700s) If you are behind in tech, it sounds like you either need to expand your economy, expand your territory (war more often), or trade more technologies.

Build more units. Units let you affect the game world. Simply put, having more units than your enemy will let you control the game. Remember that buildings only exist for two purposes:

1. Build more units.
2. Research better units.

Any time you decide to build a building in a city instead of a unit, it must be justified. The only buildings that should really exist in every city is the Courthouse, Granary, and Lighthouse (and Barracks, I suppose). Every other building is situational. A low hammer city doesn't need a Forge, a low food city doesn't need specialist buildings, and a low commerce city (in a cottage economy) doesn't need any +% commerce buildings.

It's easy to maintain power parity with the most powerful AI on Monarch by simply building more units.

 

[Seraiel]

The only buildings that should really exist in every city is the Courthouse, Granary, and Lighthouse (and Barracks, I suppose). Every other building is situational. A low hammer city doesn't need a Forge, a low food city doesn't need specialist buildings, and a low commerce city (in a cottage economy) doesn't need any +% commerce buildings.

Courthouses are not that important, I often play mostly without them (Deity) . They're needed when having Corporations, but not before, and in Dom- / Conquest games where State Property is better, they're not needed at all (though enough to unlock the FP may still be useful) .

Forges however are much more important, because whips also count as , so every whip is 25% stronger with having a Forge.

Barracks are also situational, often it's more efficient to get the 1st promotion via Theocracy and not every unit needs 5 XP, only the first attacking ones really benefit from that, once the weaker defenders come into play, 2 XP will still win the fight most of the times. That's not to say, that Barracks are bad buildings, they're cheap, and the longer the game lasts, the more they pay of, just in the beginning and on the highest levels, not building them everywhere and doing like described is better / needed.

Lighthouses are also only needed with FIN or with Seafood, normal coastal tiles are bad tiles that only make sense being worked, when going for Space, because then, cities grow large and every single is more valuable, in Dom- / Conquest games, I'd whip a unit instead of working a non-FIN-coastal-tile.

The only building that's really mandatory (in 99% of the cases) is a Granary. It's possible to win the game with building nothing but Granaries only, and that's not even that far away from good play. Granaries, Barracks in cities that build more than just a few units and Forges at the right time is better though.

 

[Jerrymander]

The only building that's really mandatory (in 99% of the cases) is a Granary. It's possible to win the game with building nothing but Granaries only, and that's not even that far away from good play. Granaries, Barracks in cities that build more than just a few units and Forges at the right time is better though.

I agree. Typically, though, I find that on Monarch, Courthouses let me expand more, faster, and I don't often find myself running State Property. Forges are ludicrously important, because Production is where games are won and lost. I do like Sumeria, though, as 90 hammer Courthouses are nice.

Like everything in Civilization, nothing is mandatory. People have won Diety without chopping or whipping.

 

[Seraiel]

I don't want to get on your nerves, but Courthouses are mostly terrible, they don't let you expand faster, they let you expand slower because they're incredibly expensive buildings. Even Zigurats are expensive. Even ORG 2-pop-Courthouses I built mostly only in Spaceraces and then sometime short before reaching Sushi, so somewhere near Chemistry or Scientific Method, after I got up Universities. Every Courthouse could be 3 Horse Archers or 2 War Elephants, those things let you expand faster, not Courthouses.

If you have problems with getting a strong economy, I wrote an (almost?) complete guide on about every possibility that economy offers (I think it's CIV Illustrated #4, see signature) . Read it, it's condensed and you'll probably learn a lot of things which let you get a greatly better economy. Even working a single Mine and building Wealth is better than losing 2, 3 or 4 pop for a Courthouse, and when I don't build them until so late on Deity (which has much higher maintenance costs) , then you probably could do completely without them on Monarch.

And State Property is the best Civic of all, unless you go for Space, then Corporations, which require FM, are better. 10% more (also from the whip and everything) , no distance maintenance and the extra from Workshops and Watermills is unbelievably powerful, as Hammer-focussed-hybrid-economies are the strongest economies of the game. You get massive production for building whatever you need from 3 Workshops and you get the full benefit instantly, they don't need to grow like Cottages to become good when the game is over. A State Property Workshop is neutral, that's amazing, and 3 are better than 3 because can be and via Wealth and Research and they also can build something, which can't. And if you then even manage to run Caste (via being SPI or GAs) at the right time, they even are 4 or 5 during a GA. a 2 5 tile is incredibly good, even in the (imo weak) situation where building Wealth and Research is the right decision, it has the power of a full grown riverside Village with PP, instantly! You can't believe, how fast you can build units from a few of those tiles, the only thing I know that's even more efficient are Kremlin-fueled-Biology-Farm-whips, but those cause , Workshops don't! In the fastest Spaceraces in HoF, all players stopped building anything but Workshops (and eventually a Watermill once they got Electricity) from the moment where they give 3 or more (so Chemistry or Guilds + Caste) . The only reason why I mention Space Races only, are, that all other games are won before those techs come into play, but if your games go that far, and you neither run SP and don't use Workshop-focussed-hybrid-economy, you've missed the most powerful tools in late-game CIV!

 

[enKage]

Most was already told.

Founding early religion is nearly always bad, except some very specific games.

As for civics
US is very map specific, if you go for space victories, in this branch you adopt only HR and Repr as soon as possible

In 2nd branch every civic is good but depending what victory you aim. FreeSpeech is nearly always ONLY for culture victories (and very very rarely for space, map specific). Genreal rule: Conquest --> Vassalage then nationalism, Space" Beauro then Nationalism, depending on empire size can stay always Beauro. Domination --> Beauro than nationalism

Labor- winning space is switching between slavery and caste, in most cases you will stay with caste after education till the end of the game

Economy: SP or FM. Only. In some very rare cases Mercantilism, but there is an exception when your teching will never reach Communism

Religion - again: switching between OR and Pacifism. General rule is: OR + Slavery, Caste +Pacifism. Forget about free religion, it is a civic for some diplomatic games. For early domination / conquest: Theiocracy

---------

I will also add some new info, noone mentioned yet

Tactics I use: Lib race, Oracle CoL, Early rushing.

I used to oracle Col also. IMO it is not good, I think if you can Oracle CoL you can also adjust your teching so you can oracle Currency instead. It is not a big difference in teching but IMO it is far stronger. Still the best use of Oracle is getting Civil Service, especially with Philo leader.

Also early rushing is not good if it is reaaly not early and quick war.

Also I assume you are too much worring about wonders. If you go for Oracle and as I see not running HR means you shot for Mids also in every game. Try games with only 1 wonder per era or without any at all. It is great learning excersise. Wonders are extremely expensive iespecially when you take into account oipportunity cost.

General rule is max 1-2 early wonders (Oracle + sth, or only sth, when sth is Mids - ONLY with stone or GLH. GWall is good but it is for advanced tactics only. Later the only "Must build" wonders are Tajmahal (if you have marble) and MoM (AIs go early for calendar so very often it is to be taken by war). Sometimes GLibrary followed by Colossus or Parthenon. Other wonders are to skip in most games.

 

[ikotomi]

I think most of the wonders are quite strong, and can be effective if the situation calls for it. Even if you miss them, you get a ton of fail gold assuming you have the strategic resource. What's important is recognizing when the wonder is worth investing the hammers, or when you just let it fail for the gold.

Statue of Liberty and Kremlin are some more wonders I usually try to push for, as well as Cristo Redentor (this comes so late that the game is usually decided more or less, but is insane for the time you have it).

On a side note, I feel like MoM is usually not prioritized by the AI, and generally have a good shot at it especially with Marble. Even without it, I like trying to chop it out,because it is just completely ridiculous.

An honorable mention should go to AP, because it's such a troll wonder. Not efficient, but definitely a quality of life build if you're not going for a "perfect" game.

 

[enKage]

I think most of the wonders are quite strong, and can be effective if the situation calls for it. Even if you miss them, you get a ton of fail gold assuming you have the strategic resource. What's important is recognizing when the wonder is worth investing the hammers, or when you just let it fail for the gold.

Beside hammer costs there is also opportunity cost. Those hammers can be a complete army (mids=14 axes) or new cities (mids=5 cities). The earlier the wonder, the higher opportunity cost because of snowball effect.

Failgold is great, but there are some wonders in proper era for failgold, when gold is needed but foundation of empire is ready: the nicest seem to be Collosus and Statue of Zeus, because of quite comon resources needed to multiply hammers.

 

[Heti123]

Ok guys, I think I'm going to play 20 turns per day, and I'll post the screenshot and save here: Just a couple of questions:
How to post a save?
Which leader should I be?

 

[Heti123]

And also, I never go for a religion past noble. I wanted to research AH because I had cows and sheep near me , but I misclicked, and my early tech rate was good because I was financial and settled on a riverside wine, so three C from the start, and I got fishing from a goody hut, so I worked a lake tile=6c from the start. And plus Monty was the only one with Mysticism, and I didn't use missionaries, it spread via trade routes.

 

[Heti123]

I will bump this to get some responses

 

[Seraiel]

I'll answer to this thread and give advice at some time tonight, so during the next 8-10h hopefully. I currently have no time, but want to help.

 

[Gumbolt]

Leader- Go random. German leader?
Custom pangea map or fractal map?
Turn off huts and random events.

To upload save click on the paperclip icon above where you type your new messages. If you hover mouse over paperclip it says attachments.

Click on this and a pop up box arrives. Click browse to search for file. Then select upload and close down that window once save appears uploaded.

For images try photobucket and link the images. Seraiel loves images.

 

[Gigglethorpe]

Ok guys, I think I'm going to play 20 turns per day, and I'll post the screenshot and save here: Just a couple of questions:
How to post a save?
Which leader should I be?

If you want to post a save, go into Manage Attachments, and then Choose File once the window pops up. Click Upload and then close the window when you're done.

I can relate to you; not too long I posted a topic asking the other players to help me with Monarch difficulty! Right now, I'm waiting for advice on an Emperor game with Justinian.

Pick whichever leader you feel comfortable with, or try out Random if you want to be forced to consider new strategies. It's possible to win with anyone; my first Beyond the Sword Monarch victory was Conquest with Shaka of all people, after several failed attempts with leaders I liked more. (My Noble and Prince games were usually Culture or Space.)

You might want to try other technologies when using the Oracle. In my Shaka game, I was drowning in unhappiness and maintenance costs early on, so I used it to pick up Monarchy. Hereditary Rule helped me throughout that entire round. Courthouses aren't as useful as they seem, and the other players told me not to build them. Those hammers could go into military units that can get gold from sacking cities!


(Seraiel, why is Free Speech a bad Civic? Isn't that important for Cultural victories, or is there a better way to achieve that in Beyond the Sword? Are Courthouses worth building if you are Organized or Charlemagne?)

One thing I learned in the Shaka game was that Curassiers are your friends. Go for Gunpowder and Military Tradition if you want Conquest or Domination. These units will be useful for a while if the AIs don't go for military technologies early. Even with my inefficient play (lack of Forges, diplomatic strategy, and micromanagement), the Curassiers were an effective brute force approach.

You don't have to found religions. I used to go for those all the time when I played Noble, but they are a distraction from more useful technologies early on.

I hope this helps, and isn't a case of "the blind leading the blind!"

EDIT: When in doubt, listen to Gumbolt.

My Shaka game was on a Donut map, if you're curious. I turned off Random Events and Tribal Villages.

 

[Seraiel]

@ Gigglethorpe:

I made my statement, that FS is a bad civic, because everybody seems to play nothing than Dom- / Conquest in this forum, very rarely a Spacerace maybe, but I haven't seen any cultural victory for months. For cultural, FS is a must.

And Courthouses are needed when going for Corporations. ORG makes them more attractive, then I build them slightly earlier and I'd also build a few more than only the ones needed for the FP in non-Corporation games, I'd always calculate how long they'd need to pay back, with ORG that amount is cut in half, so they make sense in more cases.
Charlemagne is also a special case. The Rathaus is probably the best UB behind the Terrace. I'd again calculate how long a Courthouse needs to pay back. I'm guessing that Rathäuser pay back in a comparable amount of turns like ORG-Courthouses, they are very expensive though, building troops will still be better when being able to conquer fast (so war at least from Elepult onwards) .

An important factor is the difficulty on which one plays. On Deity, the AIs have so much , that staying at 100% 'til Renaissance, sometimes even Industrial is possible. As winning the game with Cannons or Cavs is often possible too, there's no need for further economical improvement when having reached those units, so one can shut down research. Then it doesn't matter, if cities cost less, whipping 1-2 more units out of every city can be enough for a win though or if that one is already safe, will lead to a faster victory date.

Shaka's Ikhandas however are musthave-buildings, as they get speed up by AGG-trait and because they're available early and because Barracks already are cheap.

 

[Seraiel]

Ok, I now saw your question, that one I could have answered hours ago already .

Take the leader you wish. If you want to have a strong leader, take a FIN, PHI or IND one. PHI requires micromanagement, but imo., it's either the strongest trait or all of the mentioned three are on first place. SPI requires a lot of skill to leverage right, but if done, it may also be below the other three.
If you want a fair game where you learn things, you can pull of with any leader, take one with weak traits, like EXP, PRO or AGG.
If you want to just own the map as fast as possible, take Hatty or Ramesses (both SPI though, so you'll need to post more screenshots, so people can give more specific advice on when which civic / religion is optimal) .