Help Me Get Better on Immortal!

[Qactus]

Yet another two questions.

Spoiler Question #5 :

One thing that worries me long term in this game is that all of my cities except Madrid have horrendous production. Apart from using whip I don't know how I'll be producing anything even Wealth. Let's say I beeline Cuirassiers and get them super early. How am I gonna make an army of like 30 of them quickly with such horrendous production?

Spoiler Question #6 :

Is there a way to completely turn off the city governor? I hate when it reassigns tiles.

Spoiler #5 :

Slavery is fine for production. Especially with SPI you can stay in Caste&Pacifism mostly and work max Rep scientists, but switch to slavery when you have something to build. E.g. forges (slavery&org rel) or Conquistadors (slavery&police state). When you have Conquistadors you of course whip away the scientists and mature cottages mercilessly in order to assemble your initial stack.

Spoiler #6 :

Turn off completely? Well, it has to choose one tile when the city grows. You have those buttons to emphasize something, but it's best done manually. When you have so many cities that it becomes bothersome, then usually you are in a position to afford the spy specialists or whatever is picked.

 

[dankok8]

@Harv @Qactus

Spoiler #5 :

Conqs cost 100 hammers. We are looking at 4-pop whips there. Isn't that a bit excessive?

Spoiler #6 :

So there is no option to make the city governor never meddle with city tiles except after growth? I realized in recent games it's huge pet peeve of mine when the tiles are reassigned constantly and I have to keep putting them back. But I know after the first maybe 150 turns I don't have to really worry about it so much.

 

[Qactus]

Oh, and you have to use BUG mod of course! Then you get a brief overview at the beginning of each turn and see immediately which cities you need to check (at least).
Example from my current game:

Spoiler :

Notice the messages in the upper center:
- Yaroslavl and Carthage have grown, so I can check what tile has been added.
- Yakutsk has received a chop, so I can check if it is going into the right build. In my case, I will probably take a failgold wonder out of some other city's queue and let it get that chop over there.
- St. Petersburg can whip a Treb for 2pop. It is nice to get these reminders and easily avoid missing the point where it'd become a 1pop-whip.

And that's just one small part of BUG mod. Basically every screen is packed with more useful info.

 

[Qactus]

Spoiler #5 :

Conqs cost 100 hammers. We are looking at 4-pop whips there. Isn't that a bit excessive?

Spoiler #5 :

Well, you'll have +25% from forge and +25% from Police State applied to those whips, so a 3pop-whip will be 135 hammers. This is a bunch of overflow, can be followed up with a 2pop-whip (90 hammers with bonus), so again overflow.
And you'll have 5 cities to produce them.
Btw, what you can also look at is upgrading prebuilt Horse Archers with a Great Merchant trade mission.
Also, don't forget that while you have horses, you'll need iron as well.

EDIT:
On another note, since you named the thread "Help me get better at Immortal": In addition to continuing your current game, at some point you should definitely consider to replay the first part from the start and try to emulate more or less what sampsa did here. From my own learning experience, I can say it makes a huge difference to read about well-executed early turns and to actually do them.

 

[dankok8]

Spoiler #5 :

Well, you'll have +25% from forge and +25% from Police State applied to those whips, so a 3pop-whip will be 135 hammers. This is a bunch of overflow, can be followed up with a 2pop-whip (90 hammers with bonus), so again overflow.
And you'll have 5 cities to produce them.
Btw, what you can also look at is upgrading prebuilt Horse Archers with a Great Merchant trade mission.
Also, don't forget that while you have horses, you'll need iron as well.

EDIT:
On another note, since you named the thread "Help me get better at Immortal": In addition to continuing your current game, at some point you should definitely consider to replay the first part from the start and try to emulate more or less what sampsa did here. From my own learning experience, I can say it makes a huge difference to read about well-executed early turns and to actually do them.

No doubt. I'm planning to replay these turns. I did emulate Sampsa strategic plan but my micromanagement and efficiency aren't even on the same planet. I'll make detailed notes about where I am up to turn 81 and then try and see if I can best that. However, I feel that I am learning from just reading the input. My offline play has already improved. And I did already replay as I went through this. I'd often go back 10-20 turns and take Sampsa's input and try to optimize. For example, at one checkpoint Sampsa had an extra Worker, a Granary in the cap, and was two turns ahead in research. I replayed and at the same checkpoint I was only one turn behind in research this time and finished an extra worker myself. Still couldn't do the Granary no matter what though!

EDIT: Please give me input on the six questions I posted in the last update. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[Harv]

Hi, I tried almost 50 turns of your game and got to three cities.

Spoiler :

T31 Bronze Working
T35 Second city - maybe one more turn to move it further south.
T39 The Wheel
We were getting Pottery before Turn 50. Masonry was probably next, since the idea was to chop up the Pyramids.

 

[sampsa]

Alrighty then

Q1: In choosing a tech path, it's important to have a plan and try to execute it as efficiently as possible. Currency or alpha are not on the tech path towards cuirs, so they are distractions. As you note, music is mandatory, so going for it immediately is an idea and I think I'd recommend that in your position. I went CoL-CS first, as they unlock very useful civics, but I think you are so much behind that this would put you at risk to not winning music.

Q2: IMO, no. You can go archery if you get plotted on. You should gift a city and then the danger is minimized, as plotting at pleased is not that common and you can beg.

Q3: Yes, definitely adopt the religion for diplo and +1 . Gilga will get it soon, too.

Q4: I'd aim to take MT with liberalism. I think GLib is not that great, as it won't improve your lib date. However, losing it doesn't hurt at all so you can try to slow build it in capital.

Q5: Base are not needed at all, because you can whip. You can also run GM missions and upgrade. I don't think you'll have any forges, but you have access to police state for +25% . Note also there is nothing excessive in 4-pop whips, if it's the fastest way to gather an army.

Q6: Yes, just click on the city governor button, which is close to the "whip"-button.

T81

Spoiler :

Some mistakes here and there, so you are falling significantly behind compared to my game. I think the biggest mistake is not 3-pop whipping the settler for 4th city asap. That city has a wet corn, it's a great site so you really should try to found it asap! Worker management could be improved quite a lot too... Improving sheep was a priority, connecting horse not. Capital mines are not great and the river mine would be +1. You should have chopped more, faster. Your workers are on a desert hill, but mining that is a mistake, as the improved tile (3 1) is not even worth working.

I really can't explain how I'm this much ahead, but I've had Mids for 15T already, have two extra cities, one of which is size 6 with a granary and a library (also popping borders next turns, claiming the fish).

 

[dankok8]

Thanks for the reply @sampsa … I'm definitely going to replay this. The thing is that these mistakes snowball. When I'm 2 turns behind after 40 turns, i'll be 5 behind after 50 turns, 9 behind after 60 turns and like 20 behind after 80 turns. My problem is that I'm not good enough and patient enough at micromanagement. I must improve this and play analytically. Every decision early on like which tile the city is working, which improvement the Worker is building, timing builds etc. An early advantage really snowballs. I know this yet I don't apply it.

And honestly I feel like it will be an almost blind (unbiased) replay because I'll follow the same tech path.

 

[dankok8]

Replayed up to turn 81 (850 BC).

Spoiler Turn 49 Old :

Spoiler Turn 49 New :

Spoiler Comparison at Turn 49 :

This time I'm a solid two turns ahead of research. Last time Masonry was done at turn 56 and this time it was done on turn 55 with significant overflow for the next tech.

The capital last time was size 3 and two more turns to size 4 and just starting a Granary while this time the capital is reaching size 4 next turn despite just whipping the Granary.

Sampsa was already at size 4 at this point with the Granary complete and slightly ahead in research. So I'm still a turn behind compared to him.

Spoiler Turn 81 Old :

Spoiler Turn 81 New :

Spoiler Comparison at Turn 81 :

I'm obviously ahead this time with 5 cities instead of 3 cities. I also have an extra Worker and have done a more proper job with fogbusting while having Warriors in cities where needed to quell unhappiness. And last time the Pyramids were on pace for turn 84 while in this game I finished them on turn 75. Last time Cordoba the wet corn city was going to be settled on turn 83 while this time it was settled on turn 68.

However research-wise I'm a bit behind. At the same point I finished Math but somehow forgot to research AH so I'm actually 2 turns behind. I also 3-pop whipped that Settler and whipped two Workers so that held me back from working more tiles.

Spoiler How the game played out different in general... :

I started trading Corn for Gems to Qin around turn 65 or so. A forest regrew in the capital right on top of the road so the deal was cancelled and that brought my happy cap down. It kind of hurt me in that I couldn't whip sooner until I could rebuild the road and Worker turns were valuable there.

Qin didn't spread Judaism this time.

Gilga didn't settle towards me so I can still grab the Ivory.

 

[dankok8]

@sampsa

Q1: Don't I need Currency for COL? Or Priesthood but I didn't research any religious techs and have only Mysticism that I started with.

Q4: Understood. Literature leads to Music so I guess it isn't useless to research it anyways.

Q6: Thanks a lot for this one. It's been causing me headaches.

 

[sampsa]

I went medi-ph-CoL. It's not only a LOT cheaper, but also you need medi to bulb philo. Philo is on the way to nat, so it is required. I also went to music via drama to be able to skip poly, but the cost is the same anyway. Neither drama nor lit is very useful since no marble, but I thought drama at least has good trade value.

 

[dankok8]

I went medi-ph-CoL. It's not only a LOT cheaper, but also you need medi to bulb philo. Philo is on the way to nat, so it is required. I also went to music via drama to be able to skip poly, but the cost is the same anyway. Neither drama nor lit is very useful since no marble, but I thought drama at least has good trade value.

Your tech path seems most logical. I'm just used to always beelining Currency but maybe that's because I always look to expand to like 10 cities by 1 AD which isn't the case this game. I knew that Medi leads to Philo but didn't realize PH unlocks COL. Never went that path ever before.

Anyways I still seem far behind you at turn 81 even after this second playthrough though. You had Medi, PH, AH and already a turn into CoL compared to where I'm at. You had 75 beakers/turn at 100% science compared to my 44 bpt because your cities were much larger. You had Libraries completed in Madrid and Cordoba whereas I only just whipped it in Barcelona. Your culture is about to pop in Cordoba too and you have a workboat ready to net the fish. How many workers did you have at the turn 81 checkpoint? All in all I think I'm about 10 turns behind you in overall development. Best case about 9 …

 

[sampsa]

I had 5 workers. It might be OK to go with 4, not sure. I think 6 is too many, you'll run out of things to do quite quickly.

I think the biggest difference is settling speed. My cities were founded 2400, 2120, 1680, 850. Yours 2360, 2040, 1280, 850, thus your 4th is still 10T later. Send a save from around T50 so I can look if everything is OK at that point?

 

[dankok8]

Attached is my turn 46 save (2160 BC).

 

[sampsa]

Something didn't go optimally, as my T46

Spoiler :

I'm ready to settle 3rd next turn and can get the road done before settling. Somehow I already have the for granary.

I'll check move by move how I handled the capital, maybe then you can find some trick or tactic you missed.

 

[sampsa]

T15 worker done, move to improve the corn. Farming the sheep first is a mistake, nearly always best food first even if it's 1T later. The difference between 6 and 41 is huge. I'm guessing this was obvious.

T20 corn done, move to farm sheep

T25 grow to 3. I prefer working 22 over 21. At size two, work corn and sheep obviously.

T27 sheep farm done, now worker moves to forest and skips until BW. When size 4, work corn, sheep, lake, grass forest. When warrior out, fortify in capital. Start next warrior and keep growing.

T31 BW done, worker starts to chop

T33 first chop in, put it towards settler

T34 switch back to warrior to grow. This is what it should look like now:

Spoiler :

T37 Grow to 6, warrior done, 2nd chop done on the same turn. Switch to slavery and whip the settler immediately. It was at 31/100, so 2-pop whip is not enough (this is a good thing!), so now it's 3-pop whipped and is at 121/100. Again, I think it's best to work the lake as the 3rd tile. With the chop, you are making 8+23, meaning that there are 21+8+23=52 overflow next turn, great for 1-turning a worker. It's important to try to minimize the time you stagnate. Move the 3rd warrior out of capital, trying to safely fog bust. I was able to follow Gilgmesh's scout a bit, so the risk of barb activity was not that high. Losing the warrior now would hurt a lot, as we are very light on units.

T38 Wheel done, start pottery. 1-turn 2nd worker. If you go for the western spot first, now would be a good time to road the sheep (or 1S of cap). This should be taken into account when choosing which forests to chop first! Oh btw, you said "A forest regrew in the capital right on top of the road so the deal was cancelled and that brought my happy cap down." This is not possible. Forest growth doesn't affect trade routes. The deal was canceled for some other reason.

T39 Start another settler immediately. With two choppers it's out rather quickly and it's good to cool off the whip anger now before growing to 6 again to 3-pop whip the settler for 4th city. I kept on working the lake.

T44 Settler out next turn, pottery finished next turn, another whip completed next turn. Not able to quite 1-turn it, but two turns is OK. So far I've chopped 4 forests.

T47 Finish the granary, finish the road, settle 3rd.

Let me know if you can reach this position or if there is something unclear.

 

[dankok8]

T15 worker done, move to improve the corn. Farming the sheep first is a mistake, nearly always best food first even if it's 1T later. The difference between 6 and 41 is huge. I'm guessing this was obvious.

T20 corn done, move to farm sheep

T25 grow to 3. I prefer working 22 over 21. At size two, work corn and sheep obviously.

T27 sheep farm done, now worker moves to forest and skips until BW. When size 4, work corn, sheep, lake, grass forest. When warrior out, fortify in capital. Start next warrior and keep growing.

T31 BW done, worker starts to chop

T33 first chop in, put it towards settler

T34 switch back to warrior to grow. This is what it should look like now:

Spoiler :

View attachment 555859

T37 Grow to 6, warrior done, 2nd chop done on the same turn. Switch to slavery and whip the settler immediately. It was at 31/100, so 2-pop whip is not enough (this is a good thing!), so now it's 3-pop whipped and is at 121/100. Again, I think it's best to work the lake as the 3rd tile. With the chop, you are making 8+23, meaning that there are 21+8+23=52 overflow next turn, great for 1-turning a worker. It's important to try to minimize the time you stagnate. Move the 3rd warrior out of capital, trying to safely fog bust. I was able to follow Gilgmesh's scout a bit, so the risk of barb activity was not that high. Losing the warrior now would hurt a lot, as we are very light on units.

T38 Wheel done, start pottery. 1-turn 2nd worker. If you go for the western spot first, now would be a good time to road the sheep (or 1S of cap). This should be taken into account when choosing which forests to chop first! Oh btw, you said "A forest regrew in the capital right on top of the road so the deal was cancelled and that brought my happy cap down." This is not possible. Forest growth doesn't affect trade routes. The deal was canceled for some other reason.

T39 Start another settler immediately. With two choppers it's out rather quickly and it's good to cool off the whip anger now before growing to 6 again to 3-pop whip the settler for 4th city. I kept on working the lake.

T44 Settler out next turn, pottery finished next turn, another whip completed next turn. Not able to quite 1-turn it, but two turns is OK. So far I've chopped 4 forests.

T47 Finish the granary, finish the road, settle 3rd.

Let me know if you can reach this position or if there is something unclear.

Thanks a lot!

This is fantastic... no it's beyond fantastic and I'm going to study this but I don't want to just follow this to a tee and get the same result as you because when I play another game I can't find the most optimal sequence in a million years. What I have to learn from this is not what you did per se but more importantly WHY you did what you did. And the only way for me to understand that is to apply some of this knowledge to other offline games.

I farmed the Sheep first on my 2nd playthrough because I thought 4F 1C one turn earlier is better than 5F (but I was mistaken from the start because farmed wet Corn is actually 6F). I think I have to internalize that food is king. I'm used to emphasizing commerce early on but that's the wrong approach. 6F will allow much faster growth which means whipping sooner or working more tiles which ultimately means more commerce. I worked 2F 2C lake at size 3 as well so at least I got that right!

The deal cancelled because the road I built 1NE of Madrid was destroyed. I don't know why. I figured it was because a forest grew on top of it... I know for a fact that I was trading Corn for Gems then I noticed later that the deal is cancelled and then saw there is no road. Is there a way to check what happened? ​

I'll probably try and replay this start one more time. I already did better on my 2nd try (10 turns behind) compared to 1st (20 turns behind) but I can improve a lot more.

 

[Harv]

If you run until the turn the corn-first plan is completed, I count an advantage of 7 food.
The sheep-first plan has an advantage of 2 commerce, plus one worker turn.

I have had a history of counting things wrong, so I might do better to work it out experimentally.

 

[dankok8]

Played my third attempt to the first checkpoint at turn 49.

Spoiler Comparison at Turn 49 :

I'm doing a lot better than even the 2nd try. Masonry is due on turn 52 compared to turn 55 before. Cap is size 4 and has the Granary completed. Barca is gonna 1-pop whip a Worker soon and cap is growing to size 6 to 3-pop whip the Settler. I'm basically on par with Sampsa thus far except my Granary finished a turn later I think. He finished Pyramids on turn 66. Let's see if I can finish them before turn 70. I'm gonna chop like a madman!

 

[dankok8]

Played on to the second checkpoint on turn 81.

Spoiler Comparison at Turn 81 :

Finished Pyramids on turn 69. Cap got unhappy due to whip but switched right to Rep of course to deal with that.

I'm so much further in development it's crazy. Founded Cordoba a solid 9 turns earlier, Toledo 3 turns earlier.

First four cities all have Granaries done, three of four already have Libraries. Barca border popping in 2 turns, Cordoba in 3 turns then it's gonna use the Fish as well.

Research-wise I'm a turn from Math but have AH this time so I'm about 2 turns head in research of where I was on my second playthrough.

Spoiler I still see some more mistakes... :

.. even on this 3rd playthrough. Whipped the last Settler in Madrid but there was no need for that. Toledo could have been founded a few turns later because that city isn't a priority like the others. Could have also whipped a workboat for Toledo from Sevilla and brought it over. When the last whip happened in Madrid I never let the previous anger dissipate so capital could have grown a bit bigger. Toledo wasn't a priority to settle so early.

I could have improved the Corn for Cordoba a turn earlier if I planned better.

If I replayed the 4th time I could fix a few more of these mistakes but the fact that's I'm seeing them is a step in the right direction. I may go back just a few turns to fix them. Now they bug me!