Help me improve my play

[FaceUnderMask]

Greetings, comrads.

Since times immemorial my return to this forum as a frequent lurker I've been obsessed with pre-T300 science victory.

Just now I've completed my first game on immortal as Poland by the means of spaceship at T328, which is better than my last T348 Korea win on emperor.

Sadly, this is still far from what is is supposed to be. And that's why I'm here.

If any of the questions was discussed before in-depth, I would appreciate if you gave me hyperlinks.

This is mostly a mishmash of questions I have.

1) It is apparent that one of the most important things is research agreements. They are not really expensive, so the only barrier on the way is DoF. The thing is - how do you get it with AIs?
In my Poland game I've signed one DoF early with my closest neighbour Morocco, it wasn't a problem since he seems to be a trader-at-heart and religious AI overall.
Things weren't that great after that. I thought that bribing one AI to attack another will eventually make him a pariah. Once other AI will denounce the pariah - I will, too. Or so I thought. Siam, who I've chosen to be pariah, was bribed to attack England, captured one of their cities. But then, the Ottomans desided that now's their chance and DoWed England too, burning one of their cities to the ground. "He's a deadmeat" - i said, but strangely, there were no denouncements, just everyone hated him enough to DoW him constantly all of the medieval and renessance. The only other AI who desided to become my friend was Germany. Not for long, though.
Then there was WC, which I happened to control. Everyone liked my proposals, noone hated my proposals. But noone really felt like being my friend, they weren't friends with each other either. Dunno, was it because I won their city state quests occasionally, since 'competing for the same CS' and 'builded wonders they coveted' were the only negatives, but pretty much all AI's had them eventually.
Next step, ideology. This happened to be a World of Order. Siam was the only autocracy, I was the only freedom (England left with a single city isn't counted, since I was rude to her somewhere midway due to my and her spying on each other). Yeah, everyone hated siam more than me, so everything was fine.
Then I probably screwed up badly. Germany proposed a world ideology of order. I downvoted them. The red text showed up, but no dialogue followed with them, so I thought it was fine.
Somewhere around radar I've made a classic slingshot for Hubble with GS. I wonder why, but this pissed everyone's off, up to chain denouncement. Germany reminded me about downvoting their proposal (dude, it was like 20 or 30 turns ago), venice and ottomans also desided to speak to others about my 'sin' of entering information era before everyone else, and even morocco, my friend for the most part of the game, denounced me.
About 20 turns later plenty of AI DoW me. I've loaded once, to try to prevent it, but right after siam made peace with everyone, I would become next target. The only thing that solved it like a miracle was a change of ideology to order. Eventually, this switch was benefical to me, saving precious turns-to-victory, but what if everyone went autocracy instead of order?

So, to cut the looooooooong story short, I understand that getting DoFs are somewhat random, but there definitely must be some guidelines. Any ideas?

2) About the base science for GS slingshot. Past some time it feels very hard to imrpove your science even a tiny bit. Cities don't grow that well anymore, there are no science buildings left, rationalism was left with a single +50% from RA policy, awaiting it's chance at taking nanotechnology, hospitals and medical labs were skipped in favor of spaceship parts, only one maritime CS left, all slots of specialist are being worked and don't add much anymore, GS immediately go for bulbing a tech this instant and not for academy.

Past-labs, right before slingshot, at T290 I had 800 bpt with a 3-city empire, which feels quite tiny. As korea, I had about 1.3k bpt with 4 cities.
Is it normal or am I missing something. More city grown needed, perhaps?
If it could help a bit, my endgame:

Spoiler :

3) How many science do RA's give? Do my research partner plays some part at how much beakers I will get? Do my science output plays part in it?

4) Petra-worth city.
It is brought up fairly often in this section of forum. Could you post a screenshot of city you estimate being a 'petra-worth'. Since the city I built petra in:

Spoiler :

looks like a great place for a city, but I hardly can call that petra-worth. I've only built it because other stuff was even less needed at the moment.

5) I'm also interested in caravan mechanics. At the end of the game each caravan was giving me around +15 gpt, also feels quite tiny. Is there a way to optimize gold income from caravans somehow?
Probably can figure this one on my own since all info is in-game, but well, some practical advices couldn't hurt.

That's all - for now. Sorry for bothering you. Also sorry for grammar mistakes, I'm not a native speaker, still learning.

 

[anthropophage]

One thing I notice from your screen shots is that you didn't settle next to mountains, even though they were readily available. If you're playing a science game always get the mountians, observatories make a gigantic difference.
Another thing, growth. Your cities are too small. Your land wasn't particularly conducive to fast growth, so you should have been running internal food trade routes to your capital early in the game. Getting Warsaw settled next to a mountain and growing it big would have delivered a lot of extra science, the observatory gives +50% and that extra population lets you run more specialists to take advantage of secularism.
Research agreements are nice, but they are not as valuable as getting science buildings in a timely fashion. Hold off on signing them until you have all of your universities and observatories built/bought.

 

[Browd]

I'll answer a couple of questions.

3. See this thread for an update on Research Agreements in BNW: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=514438

4. That is an OK Petra city. 6 desert hills is enough to justify Petra -- not compellingly so, but OK.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

3. See this thread for an update on Research Agreements in BNW: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=514438

I see. So a single RA will net me an averaged +17%bpt if I am at the bottom. Not so bad, but it seems it was much, much better before. Even so, constant RA's with 3 civs, who got tech parity with me (beaker-wise) will net me around +50%bpt.

so you should have been running internal food trade routes to your capital early in the game

Thanks, will try to use it.
I will keep mountains in mind. Sadly, mountains aren't always an option and have their own drawbacks.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Did you build Porcelain Tower? It gives a nice boost. Also, I see you have CS allies there.. In my last game as Arabia on Immortal, I went Scholasticism and only as far as Secularism because I was doing a Diplomatic Victory training. So with only Scholasticism and Secularism, I was getting over 1300 BPT at around t328. Had I gone full Rationalism instead of finishing Patronage (for fun) and build my 2 cities near mountains instead of 1 tile away, that could have been a super fast science win.

By the way, I also have a question. So observatories. In that game I had a choice of settling 3 of my 4 cities near mountains, but I settled only 1 because if I had settled other 2 near mountains, they would be too far from food/lux tiles in 3-ring, and I started in the desert. So how important are observatories over workable tiles that guarantee growth?

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Did you build Porcelain Tower? It gives a nice boost. Also, I see you have CS allies there.. In my last game as Arabia on Immortal, I went Scholasticism and only as far as Secularism because I was doing a Diplomatic Victory training. So with only Scholasticism and Secularism, I was getting over 1300 BPT at around t328. Had I gone full Rationalism instead of finishing Patronage (for fun) and build my 2 cities near mountains instead of 1 tile away, that could have been a super fast science win.

Yes, I had PT. What I didn't had is dozens of RA's.
I had full patronage too. Out of 800 BPT @ T290 around 125 BPT were from CS. I hadn't controlled every single CS in the game since I've realized that it pisses off all of my AIs for real. Scholasticism is good, but hardly enough to power up your science.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Yes, I had PT. What I didn't had is dozens of RA's.
I had full patronage too. Out of 800 BPT @ T290 around 125 BPT were from CS. I hadn't controlled every single CS in the game since I've realized that it pisses off all of my AIs for real. Scholasticism is good, but hardly enough to power up your science.

Did you run tons of specialists with Secularism, rush-buy science buildings, take Worker's Faculties in Order, steal Tech from other civs, bulb Great Scientists at particular times, run early science caravans, steal workers?

A couple days ago I won a t310 science victory on Immortal... and I half-assed the entire game by building random wonders and not growing cities, not filling out all specialists, and not having many RA's, and delayed the NC because I was too busy getting Petra+HG (for some reason no one else bothered with HG). I might have even gone Piety or something. I ignored Patronage. And it was still a relaxed game close to t300 win. I might just re-play that one to see how fast I can win and perhaps keep track of how many RA's I sign. But I think they don't make or break a game. You could try Korea/Babylon for faster wins though.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Oh, I also just noticed that you had 2 GA's available. Why not burn them for Golden Ages? More production, more gold, more culture. I also rush-buy Hospitals and Medical Labs to keep cities growing because growth = science. People have already mentioned that size 24 capital is really weak. If you get NC+PT in your capital, you need it to be size 35-40 by t300, ideally. If you run internal trade routes and get Maritime allies, plus full Tradition, your capital should be at least 30 by t300 with this start. If you beelined for Petra, you could have also shot for HG to get +6 food and a free garden, but Ancient wonders are a gamble on Immortal+.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Your cities are too small, they should be twice that size by turn 350

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Your cities are too small, they should be twice that size by turn 350

I doubt his capital can be size 48 with the given starting location. Am I wrong?

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Did you run tons of specialists with Secularism, rush-buy science buildings, take Worker's Faculties in Order, steal Tech from other civs, bulb Great Scientists at particular times, run early science caravans, steal workers?

Yes, as far as everything but merchants is a ton.
No, I hard-builded them. How people can accumulate money to rush-buy universities in 3-4 cities is beyond me. Usually my economics are strong post-medieval, but really weak before education. Probably I should try 4-5 fake starts with arabs to fix that.
Yes, I did, after I've switched to order. Probably should've gone to order from the beginning.
No, I didn't, since I was on tech parity or slightly better from renessance and above. Stealing outdated (mostly naval) techs would've saved me ten turns or so, but would have pissed off a possible candidate for RA. Probably I cared about it too much and screwed anyway. I rigged elections in culture CSes instead.
Yes, I gathered about 6 or so GSes and one gifted GE from CS, which I'd saved for Hubble. Pretty much I've burned through atomic and informational era in the last 30 turns.
Draining science from AI with caravans is a high priority. I specifically settled one city close to Morocco.
Yes, I've stolen one worker from a CS @T26 or so.

A couple days ago I won a t310 science victory on Immortal... and I half-assed the entire game by building random wonders and not growing cities, not filling out all specialists, and not having many RA's, and delayed the NC because I was too busy getting Petra+HG (for some reason no one else bothered with HG). I might have even gone Piety or something. I ignored Patronage. And it was still a relaxed game close to t300 win. I might just re-play that one to see how fast I can win and perhaps keep track of how many RA's I sign. But I think they don't make or break a game. You could try Korea/Babylon for faster wins though.

Then I was twice as half-assed.
Basically, I rushed HG. That looked like a good idea since HG at crappy start surely can pull your capital out of misery. Another wonder's I've got - Petra, Pisa, PT, Broadway (lol), Eiffel, Statue of Liberty. Pretty much everything was justified except Broadway.
Yeah, I could try Korea/Babylon for extra fast game, but what I am aiming for is reliable T300 with any civ and with mediocre starts.

Oh, I also just noticed that you had 2 GA's available. Why not burn them for Golden Ages? More production, more gold, more culture. I also rush-buy Hospitals and Medical Labs to keep cities growing because growth = science. People have already mentioned that size 24 capital is really weak. If you get NC+PT in your capital, you need it to be size 35-40 by t300, ideally. If you run internal trade routes and get Maritime allies, plus full Tradition, your capital should be at least 30 by t300 with this start. If you beelined for Petra, you could have also shot for HG to get +6 food and a free garden, but Ancient wonders are a gamble on Immortal+.

GA's left is a miscalculation on my side. Actually, there were 4 GA's, two of them were burned at stake for a golden age of 20 turns total.
Rush-buying stuff is cool, but money hauling is my weak side in civ. Also those god-damned 'Friends' who come to you with 'Hey, I see you hauled 2k gold, care to give 900 to a friend in need?'.

Apparently, growth and gold play the biggest part in fast science win, and both are my weak side.

I will try again next weekends I guess. Probably with arabs or siam this time.

All of this is actually pretty sad. It means I've learned some tricks but not basics.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

I doubt his capital can be size 48 with the given starting location. Am I wrong?

All those lumber mills and trading posts and that mine next to the lake should be farms. Every tile that can be a farm should be a farm in a plains city.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Every tile that can be a farm should be a farm in a plains city.

That's an interesting insight, I will remember that.

 

[EnterGodMode]

If you want to rush buy Universities, you should consider pre-planning selling your copies of luxes to DoFed (for 240 per copy) Civs. I noticed that it is much easier to get a DoF by sending trade routes to your close neighbours with which u dont have border problems (expanding at them) and since you are playing one pretty nice peaceful game u should not have that warmonger penalty. If you play on Immortal + these trade routes will get really nice beaker boostn and faster Education (since AI always have more techs than you pre-Renn). You don't need trade routes immediately for food especially if they are in-land ( but cargoes rulzzzzzz). They can always be turned later into food to cap (higly recommended).

I also like Poland very much for SV since u have much flexability with SP. You can check tommynt's build with 3 policies in Liberty(till the Free settler). Also if you go in partonage, go only to consultates(the SP with which your influence rests in 20) or may be to the bonus science from CSs. Dont go full in it because imo the finnisher hurts you more ( the GPs from CSs increase your points to getting one on your own)

Another thing you should really consider is getting these cities on mountains. Especially try to have 4 nice placed cities around Education. You dont really need to rush NC, it is ok if u get it pre turn 90-100 (actually pretty fine). If u had that 4 city in your Poland game you will be looking at almost 920-950bpt even without mouintains.

Focus on citizen management, this really crucial for SVs. Obsevatory is crucial if u can build in 2 cities+ but you don't really want to build cities just for an Obs that kinda bad if you miss luxes and good food tiles.

Prebuildg Oxford in one of your sattelite cities helps a lot for getting to Plastics. Time it so when oxford finnishes you can get Plastics with the free tech. Research Labs are the best thing you can rush buy in SV games. (Poland tip - Really consider your policies from the start of the game because that is the thing that makes this Civ strong. If you go 3 in Liberty into full Tradition next to get is Rationalism. If you go full Trad into 2 Patronage - consier 1 in commerce with the big ben combo and rush buy RLabs.)

Hope i helped you

 

[phillipwyllie]

You may not want to use the exploit in The Mechanics of Overflow Inflation but you should consider the mechanic behind it. As you beeline your science based techs you can use legitimate beaker overflow to speed your way through the lower techs you missed.

Try playing as Babylon, an academy(real free GS) on researching Writing will get you through the ancient/classical tech tree in no time.

Even though you may have your entire empire connect via rail I find airports in your capital and your SS building cities to be most useful, especially if one of those cities is an annexed production power-house(the AI seems to love making manufacturies).

 

[adcarrymaokai]

No, I hard-builded them. How people can accumulate money to rush-buy universities in 3-4 cities is beyond me.

Well, you get gold from discovering CS's, El Dorado, ruins, caravans, cities. No, I don't usually have enough gold to rush-buy 4 universities (especially if I rush-bought a couple libraries), but having gold to rush-buy at least 2 in the least productive cities is not extremely difficult.

Yes, I did, after I've switched to order. Probably should've gone to order from the beginning.

Order is great for science! And the AI usually take Order. Though.. in some games the AI's seem to take all the ideologies except the one you have.

No, I didn't, since I was on tech parity or slightly better from renessance and above. Stealing outdated (mostly naval) techs would've saved me ten turns or so, but would have pissed off a possible candidate for RA. Probably I cared about it too much and screwed anyway.

Actually, no. You spy early enough to catch up, but once you are the tech leader, you no longer need to spy. RA's come early enough -- and the early ones are the most important -- before you accrue diplo hits from endless espionage. You just say, "we spy where we please". It is better than "oops, we won't spy again" and get caught. And then you stop spying. But lategame it doesn't really matter anyway because the AI gets out of control and starts massive denunciations, wars, different ideologies, and friendship is a rare occasion. So spy away to victory.

Rush-buying stuff is cool, but money hauling is my weak side in civ. Also those god-damned 'Friends' who come to you with 'Hey, I see you hauled 2k gold, care to give 900 to a friend in need?'.

I am greedy and selfish. I never give them money or lux. Also, if you have 2k gold, how come you are not rush-buying or dumping gold on CS. If you have sold all your lux and gave all the gold away (except the amount needed for RA's), the AI will have nothing to ask for.


But yes, growth and to a lesser extent gold are key to any type of peaceful victory. I mean, it doesn't make sense when a small and weak civ launches a spaceship or dominates with tourism, does it? Can you imagine New Zealand competing with Russia in terms of space race or culture.. I can't.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

If you want to rush buy Universities, you should consider pre-planning selling your copies of luxes to DoFed (for 240 per copy) Civs. I noticed that it is much easier to get a DoF by sending trade routes to your close neighbours with which u dont have border problems (expanding at them) and since you are playing one pretty nice peaceful game u should not have that warmonger penalty. If you play on Immortal + these trade routes will get really nice beaker boostn and faster Education (since AI always have more techs than you pre-Renn). You don't need trade routes immediately for food especially if they are in-land ( but cargoes rulzzzzzz). They can always be turned later into food to cap (higly recommended).

I also like Poland very much for SV since u have much flexability with SP. You can check tommynt's build with 3 policies in Liberty(till the Free settler). Also if you go in partonage, go only to consultates(the SP with which your influence rests in 20) or may be to the bonus science from CSs. Dont go full in it because imo the finnisher hurts you more ( the GPs from CSs increase your points to getting one on your own)

Another thing you should really consider is getting these cities on mountains. Especially try to have 4 nice placed cities around Education. You dont really need to rush NC, it is ok if u get it pre turn 90-100 (actually pretty fine). If u had that 4 city in your Poland game you will be looking at almost 920-950bpt even without mouintains.

Focus on citizen management, this really crucial for SVs. Obsevatory is crucial if u can build in 2 cities+ but you don't really want to build cities just for an Obs that kinda bad if you miss luxes and good food tiles.

Prebuildg Oxford in one of your sattelite cities helps a lot for getting to Plastics. Time it so when oxford finnishes you can get Plastics with the free tech. Research Labs are the best thing you can rush buy in SV games. (Poland tip - Really consider your policies from the start of the game because that is the thing that makes this Civ strong. If you go 3 in Liberty into full Tradition next to get is Rationalism. If you go full Trad into 2 Patronage - consier 1 in commerce with the big ben combo and rush buy RLabs.)

Hope i helped you

Yeah, thank you.
I've used oxford for nanotech.
Actually, I've chosen Poland quite randomly - while checking BNW achievements. Poland can into space. Before I've considered them more of a warmonger civ.

Also, if you have 2k gold, how come you are not rush-buying or dumping gold on CS. If you have sold all your lux and gave all the gold away (except the amount needed for RA's), the AI will have nothing to ask for.

Spare lux were sold. Money was being accumulated to rushbuy buildings from a tech being reseached.

Can you imagine New Zealand competing with Russia in terms of space race or culture.. I can't.

Could someone back in 50's imagined that mostly rural china would become 2nd largest economy? Or back in 80's - that people around the world would watch japanese anime?
In CiV, early bonuses snowball and result in a good standing in later eras. Real life doesn't work that way.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

Could someone back in 50's imagined that mostly rural china would become 2nd largest economy? Or back in 80's - that people around the world would watch japanese anime?

China has the largest population of any country on Earth. It went Honor/Liberty/Tradition.
Japan, on the other hand, went Honor/Piety/Tradition.

They are both pretty tall right now... where it counts.

 

[FaceUnderMask]

China has the largest population of any country on Earth. It went Honor/Liberty/Tradition.
Japan, on the other hand, went Honor/Piety/Tradition.

They are both pretty tall right now... where it counts.

If you had to put it that way, then in the last 100 turns russia was into rationalism and patronage, and bulbed literally hundreds of GS and GE, some were used to create academies and manufactures, others - for bulbing technologies and creating projects that went far ahead of its time. Then russia changed ideology, levelled up commerce, replaced most academies and manufactures with trading posts and replaced scientist/engineer specialists with merchants. And proceeded to sell its strategic resources for extra gold.

Population IS important, but it is political will and competency of people in charge that's even more important.

That went fairly offtopic, didn't it?

 

[adcarrymaokai]

If you had to put it that way, then in the last 100 turns russia was into rationalism and patronage, and bulbed literally hundreds of GS and GE, some were used to create academies and manufactures, others - for bulbing technologies and creating projects that went far ahead of its time. Then russia changed ideology, levelled up commerce, replaced most academies and manufactures with trading posts and replaced scientist/engineer specialists with merchants. And proceeded to sell its strategic resources for extra gold.

You forgot the entire Order ideology.