Help me out with this game

[blitzkrieg1980]

Need entries in my glossary for WE, SEE, CE and FTW. Wonder Economy? Specialist E.. Economy? Cottage Economy (sounds like a tautology). FTW (WTH??)

WE = Wonder Economy, SEE (should be SSE) = Super Specialist Economy, FTW = for the win

PS Is that Jim Morrison?

It sure is. As well as my quote

EDIT: Corrected SEE to SSE in prior quote.

 

[Dr Yes]

Maybe I'm just not a strong enough player, but I find my quecha rush gets bogged down if I go for Stonehenge.

Yes, that was my concern with Blitzkrieg's comment, too.

Plus, it has poor synergy with the UB.

Could you expand on that?

Plus plus, in this particular game, it's already going to be hard to achieve a balance between production on the one hand, and the high-food zero-production resources surrounding the capital on the other. If anything, the capitol looks set to become a mostly non-whipping-based worker/settler pump (with the Oracle produced via chop, possibly outside the capitol (which would have the added benefit of putting its culture benefits in a more useful place)) while city 2 does the heavy lifting for quecha production.

That means getting a settler in the queue somewhere down the line.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Quecha rush > early settler because a capital city site is bound to be better than a non-capital site.

And with that kind of capital, chop chop Stonehenge while building quechuas (IE build the quechuas while worker chops & when 1 turn left to chop, switch to SH in the build queue, then go back after chop applied to Henge). Not much need for massive #s of quechuas. 4 or 5 should do. Unless you're boxed in by multiple civs, then 8-10. But, honestly, with that kind of start and the leader you have, one more capital is all you really need.

Oracle can be mostly built with hammers aided by a couple chops.

Only quechua rush if there is a close enough neighbor (or Shaka/Monty)

 

[Bostock]

A settler is not in conflict with a Quecha rush. You will want to start your settler build at either size 5 (straight build) or size 6 (3-pop whip) in any case, and until then, you can build Quechas to your heart's delight, maybe detouring to build a Terrace if:
- you get Pottery early
- it looks like your rushing goals will be easy, and
- you will be whipping the Settler

If you plan to remain at size 5 for a while to worker/settler pump, save yerself the hammers (the Granary is less relevant when you are going to be stuck at a certain size for a while)

Use chops to push out Quechas faster when it's efficient to do so -- the main thing to watch out for is to avoid getting more than a Quecha's worth of overflow from your Quecha chops, since any more that will at best turn into gold (3.17 patch) and at work go down the drain (3.19 patch)... even the gold is a poor deal here. If it looks like that could happen, then go the straight-build route for the settler, as absorbing a chop into it could easily make it a 2-pop whip, which is not what you want IMO.

Again, I feel this is a food city (and it will only get "worse" after Sailing), not a hammer city, and trying to make it a wonder pump is going against its grain.

Plus, it has poor synergy with the UB.

Could you expand on that?

Stonehenge gives +1 culture/turn per city, and Prophet GPP. Your UB is a granary that gives +2 culture/turn, and normally you will already want to chop and/or whip out a granary ASAP in every new city anyway... so the benefit of Stonehenge is less than usual for the Inca. (And the Oracle will give you enough Prophet GPP for a shrine, though of course more slowly than if you took both Stonehenge and the Oracle.)

EDIT: I am usually an absolute Stonehenge *fanatic*, much to my own detriment and at the cost of some embarrassing restarted games, since I'm too chicken to just take the failure cash and run. So when *I* say "Don't build Stonehenge," that really means something.

Edit2: fixed quote

 

[Ayrton Senna]

This is how i play HC these days on Emperor level:

Build queue capital:
Worker
Quecha
Settler
Stonehenge
Terrace
Oracle
Forge
...(depends)
Colossos
Lighthouse
Great Lighthouse
Great Library
National Epic


Queue Tech:
Mining, Bronzeworking
Wheel, Pottery (essential for early economy and the Forge)
Meditation, Priesthood
Metallurgy!

In this way you have a big capital, pooping out many great prophets and great scientists...
Put the great people in the capital and generate more great people!
Pacifism helps a bit ;-).

Your second city is most of the time your military city, keeping care of defence and settling the other cities...

Ayrton Senna

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Yes, Stonehenge is a marginal-at-best wonder for Incas with the terrace. However, I was just saying that it is possible to do a quechua rush while simultaneously building Stonehenge. Completely unnecessary, but decent for a WE/SSE purposes of +2GPP. Again, nothing astounding. On monarch it's doable, but not as attractive as on Prince and below.

 

[JBossch]

Skip SH for the reasons mentioned above. You dont need it and if you get oracle it will mean getting a lot of GProphets down the line when you will likely want something else. Maybe play a few turns so you can see if you have any close neighbors before making grandiose long-term plans. Start on worker, you will have plenty of time for quechas if you have a close neighbor. You don't need to build one to meet your neighbors b/c you start with one.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

You dont need it and if you get oracle it will mean getting a lot of GProphets down the line when you will likely want something else.

2 Prophet Points will mean basically jack down the line. Skipping the Oracle because of that is less than optimal IMO. Incas start with a tech in the Oracle line (Myst) and he's IND. Getting a free tech early in the game with a FIN leader is nice boost. Besides, that kind of a start (IND & lots of ) is just asking for WE/SSE in the capital.

With respect to my comment about quechua rush > settler, I didn't mean permanently. Rather, instead of pushing out the settler as early as you would, grabbing a close 2nd capital site allows you to delay the settler for building a wonder or another worker. Of course, this is good advice for Monarch level. I'm not sure for higher levels. Lower levels, you might as well start wonder spamming right out the door.

 

[erikthecelt]

I think all of this discussion needs a focus. What victory condition are you trying for? The religious/Oracle line is good for cultural victories. On Monarch you can go for the CS sling because of the FIN/IND with only a small chance of missing it.

A Quecha rush means building 6-10 quechas and going ape on the neighbours. A rush assumes that you are not building settlers, workers or wonders. SH is a nice wonder to capture, Oracle is vitually useless when captured.

Have a look a Obsolete's Deity serires for Wonder hogging at that level, it's much easier to pull off on Monarch.

If you really want focused help, specifiy a VC. The rush is for early Conquest a la Moonsinger or early domination or even early Space.

Pick a VC and then we really get into the best tactics early. I personally would not have settled where you did, I would have explored until I found an AI and then settled next door for a real rush.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

I personally would not have settled where you did, I would have explored until I found an AI and then settled next door for a real rush.

How interesting! I never thought of doing that. I imagine it is only useful for HC for his Combat 1 archer-eaters.

A rush assumes that you are not building settlers, workers or wonders

That's not necessarily true. Not building settlers is understood since you'll be capturing your 2nd (and maybe 3rd) cities. But you can most certainly chop out wonders while building the cheap quechua unit. Just make sure to apply the chop to the wonder and then go back to building quechuas until the next chop is 1 turn away. Rinse repeat. That being said, SH is not a desirable wonder for this leader/civ combo. A victory condition at 4000 B.C. is not how I would approach the situation unless the map type is well known (Terra/pangea/earth). Having a VC after scoping neighbors, available land, and resources is a more optimal approach, IMO>

 

[Dr Yes]

I think all of this discussion needs a focus. What victory condition are you trying for? The religious/Oracle line is good for cultural victories. On Monarch you can go for the CS sling because of the FIN/IND with only a small chance of missing it.

A Quecha rush means building 6-10 quechas and going ape on the neighbours. A rush assumes that you are not building settlers, workers or wonders. SH is a nice wonder to capture, Oracle is vitually useless when captured.

Have a look a Obsolete's Deity serires for Wonder hogging at that level, it's much easier to pull off on Monarch.

If you really want focused help, specifiy a VC. The rush is for early Conquest a la Moonsinger or early domination or even early Space.

Pick a VC and then we really get into the best tactics early. I personally would not have settled where you did, I would have explored until I found an AI and then settled next door for a real rush.

Funny, the only thing I did so far was settle in place, and I already made a mistake? No wonder I'm not good at rushing !

OK, what I'll do is start exploring with the Quecha, start on a worker, and tech mining > fishing > bronze working. By then we should know if there are any close victims, and we can discuss further.

I'll play these moves tonight (I'm in NYC) and will post immediately.

@all: thanks so far for all the useful advice. I hope I will be able to put it into practice.

 

[erikthecelt]

How interesting! I never thought of doing that. I imagine it is only useful for HC for his Combat 1 archer-eaters.

It's from the Moonsinger school of rushing.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

But, wouldn't it be more useful to settle ASAP (guaranteeing a good spot b/c of capital map starts) and start pumping out quechuas as soon as you have a worker and your initial quechua finds a rival?

It's less of a tech-hole, too. Faster BW means faster copper. And you may be more centrally located with respect to even more civs (allowing a second quechua rush), right? Again, I can easily be quite off as I'm only now starting to win on Monarch.

 

[erikthecelt]

By rushing an AI capital, you usually get a better spot and a free worker. Having settled closer to that capital, you can take it at a much reduced cost. If you are going for a conquest win, you don't need a developed capital. Have a look at some of the HOF games played by Moonsinger. 1120 BC Deity on a Huge map. If you want to get a 3835 BC win on a duel map, it's the only method. It's a good technique that has lots of uses, By moving closer to an AI, you block off more land for later development. HC is probably the most general purpose leader in the game. Any game in any condition can be won by building a few early Quecha. He's probably the one leader that you never need to start with worker or workboat first.

 

[erikthecelt]

Funny, the only thing I did so far was settle in place, and I already made a mistake? No wonder I'm not good at rushing !

Not a mistake, it's a technique. Mistakes are attacking hill protective archers with not enough quechas!

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

By rushing an AI capital, you usually get a better spot and a free worker. Having settled closer to that capital, you can take it at a much reduced cost. If you are going for a conquest win, you don't need a developed capital. Have a look at some of the HOF games played by Moonsinger. 1120 BC Deity on a Huge map. If you want to get a 3835 BC win on a duel map, it's the only method. It's a good technique that has lots of uses, By moving closer to an AI, you block off more land for later development. HC is probably the most general purpose leader in the game. Any game in any condition can be won by building a few early Quecha. He's probably the one leader that you never need to start with worker or workboat first.

Dood.. I'm totally in your debt. I never thought of doing that. I will be starting a new game tonight with HC just to try this out!

 

[JBossch]

2 Prophet Points will mean basically jack down the line. Skipping the Oracle because of that is less than optimal IMO.

I was talking about skipping SH, not Oracle.

I think all of this discussion needs a focus. What victory condition are you trying for?

He is on turn 1. Its a little early to pick a VC unless he is intent on culture.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

You dont need it and if you get oracle it will mean getting a lot of GProphets down the line when you will likely want something else.

I was responding to this statement. But if you meant SH, then coolio

 

[JBossch]

I was responding to this statement. But if you meant SH, then coolio

Yeah, I was unclear. The SH is unnecessary for the reasons you mentioned, that is because monuments are unnecessary. The combination of the two would mean a great deal of GProph points in the early game when it does mean jack and likely postpone a GS far longer than the OP would like.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

AH! Of course. Yes, 4 Prophet GPP in the early game establishes a prophet-heavy GP Farm early on. Gotcha.