Help with French opening gambits

[Schuesseled]

the fact you'll be getting over double the culture of a regular city starting out, i'd probably go straight for a worker so i can improve my larger than regular number of workable tiles.

 

[Thyrwyn]

I, too, am planning on playing the French.

Cap build: Scout -> monument -> settler -> Stonehenge
Tech research: pottery -> calendar -> archery
Social policies: Tradition -> Aristocracy (+33% to build Stonehenge ) Then follow Dale's progression.

Might build Worker instead of Settler.

The Monument + UA + Stonehenge Culture output will be killer (If I remember from the screenies correctly and Stonehenge gives +4 culture, not free monuments - I know Arioch's site says differently).

 

[Churchdown Yank]

I, too, am planning on playing the French.

Cap build: Scout -> monument -> settler -> Stonehenge

If you are going for SH, don't you want to build a worker instead of a monument?

 

[Schuesseled]

stonehenge gives +8 culture, and no it doesn't give free monuments, that was in civ 4.

 

[bjbrains]

Yea, stonehenge is +8 culture. I'd personally go:
Scout-worker-stonehenge
Get tradition -> aristocracy, then move into liberty.
Research animal husbandry, then mining.

 

[Churchdown Yank]

stonehenge gives +8 culture, and no it doesn't give free monuments, that was in civ 4.

Ah - I was going by Arioch's site again which says free monument in every city.

This is why I'm struggling a little bit with detailed calcs until the game comes out.

 

[Prof_longhair]

If Stonehenge doesn't provide free monuments, then does it stack with the monument already built in a capital or replace it?

 

[Prof_longhair]

I, too, am planning on playing the French.

Cap build: Scout -> monument -> settler -> Stonehenge
Tech research: pottery -> calendar -> archery
Social policies: Tradition -> Aristocracy (+33% to build Stonehenge ) Then follow Dale's progression.

Might build Worker instead of Settler.

The Monument + UA + Stonehenge Culture output will be killer (If I remember from the screenies correctly and Stonehenge gives +4 culture, not free monuments - I know Arioch's site says differently).

I like this build progression now (especially if the monument & stonehenge stack).

I won't switch out a worker for the settler--i think I will plan on buying a worker in city #2 and send it back to the capital--if I have enough money...)

I am not sure about the SP choice though...why Honor before Liberty, the one happiness per city (with a garrison mind you) just doesn't seem worth it. Can you elaborate on your reasoning?

 

[cracked]

I'd go scout, scout(*), scout (*), worker, warrior, warrior(*) warrior(*), settler, settler(*), settler(*), monument(*), grannery(*). Then go from there.

Scouts to discover ruins, natural wonders and city states early and more importantly first.
Worker to, well work land. By that time you should have tradition. This will make knocking out warriors easier and quicker. May build monumnet before settlers to get liberty more quickly if in space. Priority for warriors would be to identify barb camps and knock them out. I would seek to build new cities to protect capital from direct attack. (so, inland first). Might be more expensive on roads but would make it harder to attack the capital.

Those marked with (*) are if I think necessary. E.G. more than two scouts would not be necessary if your in a closed off area. More than two warriors unecessary if barbs not close or starting location closed off or no civs nearby. No more than one settler if new cities could not be supported with luxury resources. Would probably build monuments first in new cities to offset penalty to social policy advancement, but I wouldn't build grannaries if I couldn't keep people happy. Culture development would be less of a problem with Napolean but silly not to take advantage of the trait to race through sp tree.

Gold from barb camps would be used to gold rush additional worker units as necessary. I'd wait for borders to pop naturally (it will usually focus on getting the resources you need and cause less issues with surrounding civs).

Playing as the french would be a little different from other civs because they would probably allow greater flexibility regarding situation with regards social policy. You may not need liberty if you can't expand that fast due to being closed in. Tradition would be a no brainer though, and it would make sense if you have space to use your capital to knock out settlers once you get liberty.

At present the French look to be potentially very strong to play as. Or very irritating to play against.

Edited to add: This would give you about 3 culture per city, if monuments are built first in new cities. A culture boost of 9 per turn. i.e. 300%. Against an increased cost to sp of 90% on top of the number of sp's gained (depends whether or not sp cost increases proportionally for cities or exponentially). After 100 turns. Delaying building the settlers should allow you to develop tradition and liberty before you start building settlers.

My fear with building Stonehenge first is that it could take a long time to build, by which time you could end up being hemmed in. This gives the same yield as the cities do without the increased cost. But if you end up not being able to build those extra cities you may be disadvantaged. So it is very situational.

 

[Schuesseled]

If Stonehenge doesn't provide free monuments, then does it stack with the monument already built in a capital or replace it?

all culture bonuses stack.

if one building gives +1 another +2 and the last +3, you get the total of 6.

Same with food, science, gold and production.

I'd go worker > warrior/scout > monument > stongehenge.

I'll ignore build the monument if i get the wonder boost early, and i'll choose scout or warrior depending on wether i want to explore rough terrain or kill barbs.

 

[Zhahz]

With discovering natural wonders giving happy, and getting gold from meeting city states, on top of goodie huts, there seems to be more reason to aggressively explore early. Depending on the feel of the map/start, it may be highly tempting to go with 2 scouts right off.

So much to consider. There will be some monster threads discussing initial actions once the game is out, that's for sure.

For ex, with France, even though a monument piles on more culture, you're already getting 3 in your capital, so another +1 isn't necessarily that huge as an early priority vs scouting, getting a worker out, or starting a 2nd city - especially if you're considering an early culture wonder - orchestrating to get the wonder done quicker might be a better plan. For other civs you'd be doubling your culture so it's more attractive, IMO.

 

[iop]

I, too, am planning on playing the French.

Cap build: Scout -> monument -> settler -> Stonehenge
Tech research: pottery -> calendar -> archery
Social policies: Tradition -> Aristocracy (+33% to build Stonehenge ) Then follow Dale's progression.

Might build Worker instead of Settler.

The Monument + UA + Stonehenge Culture output will be killer (If I remember from the screenies correctly and Stonehenge gives +4 culture, not free monuments - I know Arioch's site says differently).

I'd unlock liberty before aristocracy, because you are building the settler before you start building Stonehenge. I.e.
Social policies: Tradition -> Liberty -> Aristocracy

For the French, the great wall might be an interesting wonder later on, since they're likely to own lots of terrain.

Also, I might get mining (for wonder production) and animal husbandry (to reveal horses) before archery, depending on how close my neighbours are.

 

[Dale]

I am not sure about the SP choice though...why Honor before Liberty, the one happiness per city (with a garrison mind you) just doesn't seem worth it. Can you elaborate on your reasoning?

From what we know we can conclude that happiness is affected by two things:
- per city growth (-2 happy per city)
- per pop growth (-1 happy per pop)

The key to growing appears to be managing how much of an impact growth will have on your empire happiness. Growing out (new cities) costs 3 happy, whilst growing up only costs 1. For early land grab, you need to negate the effect of per city growth. Thus the two early happiness affecting SP's (in Honor and Liberty) become important.

Personally, Honor first since it gives better barb protection.

 

[bjbrains]

From what we know we can conclude that happiness is affected by two things:
- per city growth (-2 happy per city)
- per pop growth (-1 happy per pop)

The key to growing appears to be managing how much of an impact growth will have on your empire happiness. Growing out (new cities) costs 3 happy, whilst growing up only costs 1. For early land grab, you need to negate the effect of per city growth. Thus the two early happiness affecting SP's (in Honor and Liberty) become important.

Personally, Honor first since it gives better barb protection.

Eeh. Liberty seems much better earlier on. The entire tree is made for expansion, and does a good job of it.

 

[cracked]

Another openning gambit for the french in terms of rexing is to fill the liberty tree first.

Liberty: +50% settler production. (9 turns with one city)

Citezenship, workers build improvements 25% quicker. (15 turns after with one city)
Meritocracy, +1 happiness for each city connected to capital. (basically halving the effect of unhappiness from number of cities). (I think this would work out at 14 turns with three extra cities).
Representation, +1 culture for each city. (I think this would work out at 18 turns with four cities WITHOUT monuments).

assuming

1st sp = 25 (9 turns with one city)

2nd sp = 45 (15 turns with one city)

3rd sp = 65 base. 115 with four cities. culture of 9 per turn with four cities WITHOUT monuments. (so that's 13 turns).

4th sp = 85 base. about 160 with four cities. You should have monuments by this time, so culture of 13 per turn (so about 13 turns). At which point, you'd loose 4 unhappy and gain another 4 cultures per turn. (17 Per turn basically).

You'd get the 5th sp within 14 turns after that. (base of 105, total of about 200). Put simply, your rate of sp unlocking would speed up after this.

The formula is total = base+ base*(.3 * (cities-1))

Where base = 25 + (number of sp*20)

I think this one adds up (probably better than my unedited post above).

Seems to me that the french are built for early rexing then sitting back until you can expand again. If you can get the resources to support it in the first phase, you should outpace other civs socially very easily.

 

[Polobo]

The formula is total = base+ base*(.3 * cities)

Where base = 25 + (number of sp*20)

cities - 1; your capital does not count only additional, non-puppet, cities.

 

[cracked]

cities - 1; your capital does not count only additional, non-puppet, cities.

Thanks will accordingly edit.

 

[cracked]

Nonethelss, you're looking at unlocking 5 social policies within the first 75 turns (at a conservative estimate against gameplay). As such, aggressive scouting followed by aggressive expansion should work very nicely with the French.

 

[snipperrabbit!!]

Well, third SP is 80 (1 city) or 110 (2 cities) so ..........

 

[Dale]

Eeh. Liberty seems much better earlier on. The entire tree is made for expansion, and does a good job of it.

Faster workers are useless early on since you don't have the techs to build stuff with, and since you have to focus on calendar and archery first you're just delaying workers actions even longer.

+1 culture per city is nice, but a bit pointless when you've only got 2 cities.

Since France culture gambit would need to have cities focus on monuments and stonehenge early, your army takes a hit. You'll want the extra vs barb bonus that Honor gives.

Yes liberty is nice, but pointless if barbs over-run your area effectively killing on the ability to use workers and leverage all of Liberty's worker bonuses and trade route bonuses.

An unused SP is a useless SP and a waste of culture. You're better off grabbing something you'll use, or ensures the ability to use future SP's.