Help with French opening gambits

[bjbrains]

Faster workers are useless early on since you don't have the techs to build stuff with, and since you have to focus on calendar and archery first you're just delaying workers actions even longer.

+1 culture per city is nice, but a bit pointless when you've only got 2 cities.

Since France culture gambit would need to have cities focus on monuments and stonehenge early, your army takes a hit. You'll want the extra vs barb bonus that Honor gives.

Yes liberty is nice, but pointless if barbs over-run your area effectively killing on the ability to use workers and leverage all of Liberty's worker bonuses and trade route bonuses.

The only honor bonus that helps versus barbs is the tree itself. I don't think missing out on 25% is going to make you be "overrun" with barbs.
Also, workers are expensive! If you're rexing, how many 70 hammer workers can you build? I think 25% worker speed is a big deal. Especially since France's cities will be getting tiles more quickly.
Collective rule/republic are the real prizes in Liberty anyway. Collective rule makes your cities get to 2-3 pop much faster, helping your economy get on track much more quickly. Republic is also really good for getting you over the vulnerable period when you have several cities, but they're still underdeveloped.
Representation isn't amazing and can probably be ignored, but getting Meritocracy (Which synergizes with the faster worker speed) is another way to bridge the gap between multiple undeveloped cities and multiple developed cities. And if you're advocating monuments in cities, then isn't representation just better?

 

[cracked]

Faster workers are useless early on since you don't have the techs to build stuff with, and since you have to focus on calendar and archery first you're just delaying workers actions even longer.

+1 culture per city is nice, but a bit pointless when you've only got 2 cities.

Since France culture gambit would need to have cities focus on monuments and stonehenge early, your army takes a hit. You'll want the extra vs barb bonus that Honor gives.

Yes liberty is nice, but pointless if barbs over-run your area effectively killing on the ability to use workers and leverage all of Liberty's worker bonuses and trade route bonuses.

An unused SP is a useless SP and a waste of culture. You're better off grabbing something you'll use, or ensures the ability to use future SP's.

What I'm not sure about is whether or not the cost of previous sp affects the cost the next sp (what I've put up does seem a little bit strange, for it to be that quick). In which case, the cost of sp unlock would be allot more. (say 155 culture for the third, about 277 for the fourth). It would still be pretty quick by comparison with other tactics which would suggest building stonehenge 1st and delaying expansion which could lead to you being hemmed in.

I mean, this is all speculation at present (except for those who have already played the game). The tactic would require the space for those cities, the means to keep them happy, and building a pretty big army to defend it.

Personally, I'd forgo stonehenge if I had the space to do what I suggest (would you need it?) (already said that I'm sure). You'd also want to focus on military techs before going for calender (animal husbandry then bronze working) so precious metals would be more useful. The happiness is gained from discovering natural wonders and gold from city states would be required from scouting early (sure I said that as well).

There would be a risk from crippling yourself with costs, and it wouldn't be something you could do in every situation.

 

[Polobo]

Some thoughts:

A couple of warriors and a scout defending one or two cities isn't likely to be that risky.

I still think you'd want a worker to build the trading posts that pottery makes available; the first couple of growth cycles aren't that long. Work hills/forests with stagnate growth until you get a couple of trading posts up then work those (and maybe a farm) while you grow a few cycles. Then move back to production once you near the happy cap.

I don't see why you'd want Archery early; Pottery -> Calendar is good; depending on whether you have marble nearby you could fit in Mining -> Masonry and a worker in the extra time - you'd want to grow to get the additional science anyway.

 

[Dale]

The only honor bonus that helps versus barbs is the tree itself. I don't think missing out on 25% is going to make you be "overrun" with barbs.
Also, workers are expensive! If you're rexing, how many 70 hammer workers can you build? I think 25% worker speed is a big deal. Especially since France's cities will be getting tiles more quickly.
Collective rule/republic are the real prizes in Liberty anyway. Collective rule makes your cities get to 2-3 pop much faster, helping your economy get on track much more quickly. Republic is also really good for getting you over the vulnerable period when you have several cities, but they're still underdeveloped.
Representation isn't amazing and can probably be ignored, but getting Meritocracy (Which synergizes with the faster worker speed) is another way to bridge the gap between multiple undeveloped cities and multiple developed cities. And if you're advocating monuments in cities, then isn't representation just better?

You have to be careful of your happiness early on though. We don't really know how much happiness you start with, but say it's 6 happiness. That's only 2 size 1 cities (3 unhappiness each). Whilst a worker may be useful in this situation (to prempt your counter argument) you'll still be waiting for the tech to unlock that improvement (be it mining, trapping, wheel, sailing, bronze working or other).

I also get the feeling from dev comments that barbs will be more active and harder than Civ4, and relying on city defense only would be a bad thing.

Like I said above, Liberty may be a good line, but wasting culture on useless early SP's is just a simple waste of culture. And since happiness is such an issue early game, I think the value of garrisons (-1 unhappy in garrisoned cities) is much more valuable than say collective rule (which kills your empire happiness faster halting growth in its tracks).

But all that said, do we know what effect running negative happiness is? If it's very minor, then it may be worth dipping into negative happiness to ensure future prosperity. If the effect is harsh, then negative happiness would be something to avoid (making garrisons even more valuable).

 

[Sciguy001]

Wow. This is why I like these forums so much, the game hasn't even been released yet and people are already formulating complex strategies. Personally I'm going to get a feel for the game before I get out my calculator. But you guys are amazing

 

[Polobo]

I'll be darned if I can find it but I KNOW I saw that Greg's happy due to difficulty (Immortal?) was 9 happy faces.

If someone knows the happy for a different level we'd at least be able to calculate a linear scale.

It can be imputed as well: the Germany game starts with Greg having 6 happy surplus with a single size 1 city (2 unhappy from #, 1 from population).

 

[bjbrains]

You seem to have a decent base, and you should get a bit more because of natural wonders. And it shouldn't be too hard to find a luxury resource that you can get by mining or trapping (mining being a high priority, and trapping being fairly easy to get). That should hold you through the first few cities. How many warriors are you going to have sitting around in cities anyway? It's not like they're cheap to build. Meritocracy is much easier to set up.

 

[Louis XXIV]

[base cost] = [cost of old policy] + [# of social policies]*20
[final cost] = [base cost] * (1 + (.30 * [# of cities - 1]))

edit: -1 to exclude the capital

edit: I did not check the validity of the [base cost] = equation

I don't think the base cost equation is right. I'm getting similar predicted numbers (trying to take the first set of numbers and scale them to 5 social policies and 5 cities), but they're off by 20 or 30. I know it could be rounding errors, but that feels a lot.

BTW, in case anyone's curious, the economist would argue that the ideal number of French cities is 3. That's when your marginal benefit of more cities exceeds the marginal cost of +30%. After that, you will still get social policies faster, but with diminishing results. I think I couldn't get it so you could get the first policy faster than 4 turns (even with 10,000 cities). Assuming that you have something else to build besides a settler, it's best to get three cities, then build cultural improvements (and other useful stuff).

 

[Dale]

You seem to have a decent base, and you should get a bit more because of natural wonders. And it shouldn't be too hard to find a luxury resource that you can get by mining or trapping (mining being a high priority, and trapping being fairly easy to get). That should hold you through the first few cities. How many warriors are you going to have sitting around in cities anyway? It's not like they're cheap to build. Meritocracy is much easier to set up.

A single garrison warrior would take less time to setup than a worker and a road to the next city to setup a trade route.

Also, I'm not saying meritocracy is useless, but look at collective rule. It's really just a once off bonus, and then only on new cities. It's value to me is pretty limited versus say garrison which is a continuous full game bonus. How many new cities are you going to found? 5? 6? Then you'll start conquering cities (so collective rule doesn't apply).

Out of Liberty, for my style of play only citizenship, meritocracy and representation look good. Though the Honor tree looks good to me, bonus vs barbs, bonus for adjacent unit, -1 unhappy per garrisoned city. I myself would focus on both Honor to Caste, and Liberty to Meritocracy/Representation.

 

[iop]

You have to be careful of your happiness early on though. We don't really know how much happiness you start with, but say it's 6 happiness.

Greg had 10 base happiness in his game at immortal, so 6 at deity might be realistic. But I won't play deity first

BTW, in case anyone's curious, the economist would argue that the ideal number of French cities is 3. That's when your marginal benefit of more cities exceeds the marginal cost of +30%.

Acutally, this depends a lot on how much culture you produce in the capital, and at what time you count. Initially, your capital produces 3 culture, and as long as you don't build any improvements ever, the fourth city adds less than 30% culture. However, if you assume that all cities will end up with a monument and a temple (and produce 6 culture each), the fourth city just becomes viable.

However, if the cost of the new social policy includes the cost of the previous social policy, you want to keep your first few SPs as cheap as possible: If you get your second social policy at 2 cities, which might make the SP 10 more expensive, you will have paid 100 additional culture by SP#5.

I myself would focus on both Honor to Caste, and Liberty to Meritocracy/Representation.

That sounds reasonable, though I do want that bonus to wonder production from Tradition, and then maybe the unhappiness reduction from the capital's population.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, the expansion from three cities to four would theoretically wait until you get a second culture producing building (the temple). BTW, is it just me or are there an extreme shortage of culture buildings this time?

 

[cracked]

If the effect is harsh, then negative happiness would be something to avoid (making garrisons even more valuable).

I think the first level of unhappyness keep you from city growth and building settlers. It puts the breaks on expansion.

Extreme unhappyness? I'm not quite sure. Think it might hamper tech development, but can only realistically occur with wars.

What I do know is that you don't necessarily loose population (i.e. that citzen can't be made to work because they're unhappy)

 

[cracked]

Yeah just checked on well of souls. Unhappyness limits growth by introducing a penalty on the surplus food you produce.

Extreme unhappyness results in a complete halt to growth, and a penalty to combat troops.

There is not much difference between the two, happynes can be -1 to limit surplus food, happyness at -10 to disadvantage combat troops

 

[Churchdown Yank]

Wow. This is why I like these forums so much, the game hasn't even been released yet and people are already formulating complex strategies. ...

This is why the Civ 5 Strategy and Tips subforum should be opened (with its strict moderation) and this thread should be moved there immediately

And since there's no "Noble" difficulty anymore - who's going to work on putting up the first "Prince's Club" game?

 

[stealth_nsk]

I think happiness will not be a big issue with rushing to 4 cities. Yes, you'll probably gain unhappiness status on high difficulty, but that's not critical. With 4 cities and fast tile conquest player should be able to grab a couple of luxury resources rather quickly if techs are chosen wisely.

 

[iop]

Well, the expansion from three cities to four would theoretically wait until you get a second culture producing building (the temple). BTW, is it just me or are there an extreme shortage of culture buildings this time?

Depends on whether you need the additional production and territory, I guess.

Anyway, there seem to be at least 5 culture buildings: Monument, Temple, Monastery, Museum, and Opera. I wonder whether that makes Representation worth the investment.

 

[Feyd Rautha]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that much is the ability to purchase improvements and units from turn 1 of the game.

This changes a few things for my ideas of an opening gambit (and this applies to all civs):
Scout > Scout > Worker > Settler

If you are next to a natural wonder, some good resources, or bad terrain:
Scout > Worker > Scout > Settler

That said, the plan would be to find the cost of a warrior in gold. Once you reach that cap gold rush him. Follow that with whatever it is that you prioritize next. Almost like you have two queues. Also, I have not seen confirmation anywhere for whether or not gold rushing works like it did in Civ IV (increased cost for rushing with no production invested). If the cost goes down after one turn of production that adds another level to the mix.

Either way, I'd get the scouts out as fast as possible due to the changes that are very "Colonization-esque" regarding first contact with city-states and natural wonders.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Depends on whether you need the additional production and territory, I guess.

Anyway, there seem to be at least 5 culture buildings: Monument, Temple, Monastery, Museum, and Opera. I wonder whether that makes Representation worth the investment.

Those are the only ones I could find (actually, I missed Museum). I'm not thinking about expansion, but social policies. With each one increasing in cost, I feel like it would take something like 800 turns (out of 500) to win a cultural victory with just buildings, assuming you could build them all at once.

 

[Polobo]

Those are the only ones I could find (actually, I missed Museum). I'm not thinking about expansion, but social policies. With each one increasing in cost, I feel like it would take something like 800 turns (out of 500) to win a cultural victory with just buildings, assuming you could build them all at once.

Keep in mind that one or more of those buildings should allow for an artist specialist as well.

 

[iop]

Those are the only ones I could find (actually, I missed Museum). I'm not thinking about expansion, but social policies. With each one increasing in cost, I feel like it would take something like 800 turns (out of 500) to win a cultural victory with just buildings, assuming you could build them all at once.

That's why there are the social policies that give you more culture, more policies, or make additional policies cheaper. Also, there are at least two cultural wonders (Stonehenge, Christo Redentor), and at least one national wonder (Hermitage) that increases cultural output. Also, there are the cultured city states that will help you on your way (at least one report had the culture from city-states being more than the culture from own cities).

But yeah, I'm really getting curious how much SPs progress in cost.