Help with ICS plz

[MaxPayne316]

Hi everybody, I recently begin to play the game on Deity. I saw that ICS strategy was a good starting strategy for deity level but I'm little bit confuse about some aspect of the strategy.

1. I understand why we have to build hanging gardens but still even if I build Hanging Gardens I got lot of unhapinness. I'm wondering if it's usual or not and how you deal with this without building any citiy improvement

2. Which goal is best to first try this strategy: Spaceship or World Conquest?

3. Do you build caravans for faster reserach or only focus on military units and settlers/engineers?

4. What is the goal in research after Monarchy and Trade? I saw that Davev say Invention is the next goal but using Leo Workshop you still need to get all the pre-search to get Dragons and Musketeers. I want to get full advantage of Gunpowder before the AI have it to destroy some ennemies. Is Invention still the best advance after Monarchy and Trade?

I'll try a new game focusing on world conquest with Carthaginians

 

[Peaster]

Hi everybody, I recently begin to play the game on Deity. I saw that ICS strategy was a good starting strategy for deity level but I'm little bit confuse about some aspect of the strategy.

1. I understand why we have to build hanging gardens but still even if I build Hanging Gardens I got lot of unhapinness. I'm wondering if it's usual or not and how you deal with this without building any citiy improvement

Well, HG is usually enough for me. Stick with Monarchy. Keep your cities fairly small, as DaveV recommends - mostly size 1 or 2. Keep a few warriors around for militia. But also try leaving some size 2 cities empty (there is a happiness bug in Civ2, so that militia actually hurt happiness in some cases).

You will probably still have a riot once in a while, but just hire an Elvis until you can find a better fix (eg reduce city size or bring in militia).

DaveV says nothing about when to stop growing, but I usually stop making settlers by about 500BC to focus on conquest. I usually build about 20 cities (plus captures). If you want a really huge empire, or bigger cities, build Mike's and you should have no problems.

2. Which goal is best to first try this strategy: Spaceship or World Conquest?

Conquest, of course! If you ever decide that conquering is not challenging enough, you can try for Early Conquest (EC). Of course, many players prefer to build Spaceships. You probably have to master more of Civ2 [eg trade] to do that well, and it seems less dramatic to me than conquering the world. BTW - All my answers here have EC in mind.

3. Do you build caravans for faster reserach or only focus on military units and settlers/engineers?

For me (and most EC players, I think) vans are only for making Wonders.
SlowThinker played a great EC game a few months ago involving trade routes to raise lots of gold for rushing units in his colonies. I don't think he really needed the beakers he got. I suppose spaceship players do use vans for beakers.

4. What is the goal in research after Monarchy and Trade? I saw that Davev say Invention is the next goal but using Leo Workshop you still need to get all the pre-search to get Dragons and Musketeers. I want to get full advantage of Gunpowder before the AI have it to destroy some ennemies. Is Invention still the best advance after Monarchy and Trade?

No. Go for Mapmaking, Polytheism and Writing. You can quit research at that point and raise taxes. If you really want to research more, the best alternatives are Monotheism or maybe Chivalry (with Sun Tzu). If you are playing on a large continent, you can insert Seafaring very early on, to make explorers for hut popping.

I NEVER get to invention or gunpowder in an EC game (and neither does the AI).

I'll try a new game focusing on world conquest with Carthaginians

Excellent.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

ICS is more suited to Conquest games than Landing games. In ICS you make a lot of small cities that are very close to each other and have little or no improvements. This is good for making a huge army and spreading vulnerability (loss of any given city is a minor set back). It is also the best use of land early on in the game.

Larger cities that share little foot print with one another and have city improvements are more suitable for Landing games. It is only in such cities that you can produce significant amounts of science and eventually shields (for the space ship parts). Larger cities are also better use of land in the long run. EL games typically last longer than EC games because you have to research most of the tech tree to be able to build a space ship and that takes time no matter how lucky you get.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Because of your rapid growth, you should have both a technological and a production advantage over the AI early in the game, but as your empire spreads, it becomes more difficult to keep expanding exponentially. - it just takes too long for settlers to get out. Land may become scarce, etc. This is why ICS fits so well with Early conquest - you go on the offensive at the point where your relative advantage is at its peak.

In some of my early conquest games, I would deliver caravans for the gold. Depending on how many techs I have, the cost of techs may start getting steep, so I may deliver a couple vans to put me over the top for something like Monotheism so I can send out Crusaders. I often include one or more caravans at the front of my attack forces, particularly if going to fairly distant locations. I deliver the caravans right before I attack and then use the cash bonuses to help bribe cities once the capital has fallen. My attack fleets are often caravans in front, Elephants/Knights/crusaders in the middle, and Diplomats on the back end. Consider looking at my log for GOTM 39 (Starts at post #36) for an example of how I did this.

I believe DaveV was much better about using his dozens of ICS cities to produce insane amounts of caravans and delivering them for both gold and research and to transition into a more modern civ. Some of the folks who have spent more time at apolyton (la fayette, Elephant?) might be able to share more of how he worked his ICS games.

 

[la fayette]

Some of the folks who have spent more time at apolyton (la fayette, Elephant?) might be able to share more of how he worked his ICS games.

You should write "how he works", since daveV still plays civ2 (mostly PBEMs).

I am not the right man to be asked questions about ICS, since I have decided never to play ICS (mostly because of the "double unhappy" bug), but if someone is willing to contact dave, I can send you his e-mail address.

Otherwise, just ask Peaster, who is such a clever pupil that he now gets just as brilliant results as the master

 

[MaxPayne316]

Thank you guys for your replies, I have just finished my game with the carthaginian on standard map and I won by conquest. I noticed the bug with martial law and got my units out of the cities which had disorder. I finished the game on Deity in the year 1758 with a total of 92 cities.( That's a LOT ) I took full advantage of Leo Workshop and I builded as much Wariors and Horsmen as I could. By the time I got leadership, I had 2 ennemies out and with my new army of 120 Dragoons no need to say that it was easy to destroy the rest of them. ( They didn't have Gunpowder yet )

Peaster I just saw the tips you gave me (Thank you BTW) and I see I did some mistake. It is obvious that waiting to get Gunpowder to begin the conquest is much too long. I think aiming Crusaders early is better than aiming for dragoons. I don't know what is the best number for cities early but I think i'll try to not build too many of them to have less unhappiness and focus more on military. I'll try a new game and I'll focus more one Early Conquest ( Because I just realize how it is easy to win with ICS ). There is just a little question I have about Early Conquest: Small or Standard map?

BTW sorry if my english may look bad, I speak French

 

[Peaster]

Thanks to LaFayette for the kind words, and to Tim for explaining your use of vans in EC. I was dimly aware that you used them, but wasn't sure how. The correct use of vans may be the biggest open question about EC.

Max - One of the main challenges in EC is transporting troops efficiently, usually by sea. You'll probably learn that skill faster on a standard map. When I was learning EC, I practiced on about a dozen standard maps and made notes about my choice of wonders, about growth rates, production of units, conquest speed, and so on. It's easier to compare your games if you stick with one type of map for a while.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

You should write "how he works", since daveV still plays civ2 (mostly PBEMs).

Sorry. I had seen him playing in some succession games a couple years ago, but those games seemed to be faltering the last time I checked. Granted, I haven't looked around much over there for quite a while, and when I did, I rarely if ever looked at the PBEM games.

 

[la fayette]

I rarely if ever looked at the PBEM games.

No problem: IMO PBEM games are much more fun playing than lurking
There are 2 great PBEM games currently going on at Apolyton:
1) The so-called "7 players" which started 3-4 years ago (first PBEM with only human players and double production). The final battles are now very close, but daveV is my ally and I feel very happy for that.
2) "Seeds of Greatness" (based on the scenario by Paul Cullivan, who is also one of the players). There is an allout war going on (six smaller civs allied against the Assyrians) = fun

 

[MaxPayne316]

I made my first Early Conquest, but I think I could do better. I played a game with the spanish and I conquered the world by A1280. It's sooner than my game before but there is still space to do lot better. I reach the primary goals of ICS ( HG and Monarchy ) and after I searched for Polytheism and Writing. I build Marco Polo embassy to discover where my ennemies were. I think I should have build the Lighthouse because I play on standard maps for now and I take lot of time to travel along the lands. I'll try another Early Conquest game and try to do better ( even if A1280 is a satisfying result for a Deity Noob like me )

I attached some of my game files if you have comments on what I should have done please let me know

 

[Peaster]

Max - That's quite good for your first EC game. My first one (with NO guidance) ended in 18xx AD. I bet you can beat 1000AD next time.

The Lighthouse is usually a good idea for EC, because the 200 shields only cost you a few turns of production, and the wonder usually saves many more turns than that. The exceptions are small maps, or ones packed so tightly with islands that your triremes can island-hop. A little black-clicking can identify these maps (if it is allowed).

There are 2 great PBEM games currently going on at Apolyton:

What....only TWO great ones ?

 

[starlifter]

by la fayette:
I am not the right man to be asked questions about ICS, since I have decided never to play ICS (mostly because of the "double unhappy" bug), but if someone is willing to contact dave, I can send you his e-mail address.

Otherwise, just ask Peaster, who is such a clever pupil that he now gets just as brilliant results as the master

la fayette is still educating me . Peaster has an amazing EC guide, which I just found in another thread, here.

 

[civdood]

Civdood ask to la fayette what "double unhappy" bug? can it be double unhappy? Is it two?

 

[ElephantU]

The double unhappy bug refers to the effect of Hanging Gardens on "black faced" citizens (those that have gone beyond regular "red face" unhappy to doubled unhappy), where the use of two luxuries converts them directly to happy rather than content. Usually two luxuries converts a citizen one "state", from unhappy to content and then on to happy. But a bug in the code allows an instant conversion from double unhappy directly to unhappy, and that is exploited by ICS players because more cities causes greater unhappiness due to number of cities (the "riot factor").

 

[starlifter]

Black = Double Unhappy citizen
Red = Unhappy
Dark Blue = Content
Light Blue = Happy

One expects:

2 lux: Black to Red
2 lux: Red to Dark Blue
2 lux: Dark Blue to Light Blue

This totals 6 lux.

In reality, 2 lux does this:

2 lux: Black to Light Blue.


So you spend 2 lux, not 6, to make Double Unhappy (black) to Happy.


However, the game also caps... strips away... excess luxuries, based on city size. A size 4 city that had 20 luxuries would only get to use 8 for their city. So there is a counter-weight to the double-unhappy issue, too.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

But a bug in the code allows an instant conversion from double unhappy directly to happy

This being a bug is pure speculation; it may have been by design. Temples, cathedrals, ... make black hats go to red hats. Luxuries make them happy rightaway. Maybe this was done on purpose to prevent large empires with Michelangelo, Bach, and temples to run without any spending on luxuries.

This is not unrealistic either. In the real world spending money, even just a little bit of it, on the poorest of the poor has a dramatic effect.

 

[starlifter]

True... the analogy could be that temples & churches have a "harder" time in and of themselves forcing an unhappy populace to be content. A temple mollifies 2 red guys, but only 1 black. However, as Ali said, if you "give" grossly unhappy people even a little bit, they are happy. For example... that is the source of the "Bread and Circuses" which emperors in the Roman empire used to use.... temples only did do much, but throw some bread & entertainment & stale wine to the masses, and they "love" you.... as long as you keep the luxuries coming (e.g., not a one-time thing, but turn-by-turn in Civ 2).

I think its not necessarily a bug; however, there is a way to know for sure on this and other issues which come up from time to time... make a list and ask Brian Reynolds, who is still alive and well. Shall we make a thread, discuss, and ultimately create a succinct list, and find a way to ask the designer himself? I think we can, and I think he would answer to the best of his recollection. However, it will sound oxymoronic (contradictory), but: I'm not sure the designer & chief programmer (Brian) plays Civ 2 enough to know some things which are more obscure. But it is worth a try!

 

[ElephantU]

I believe others have documented that the double unhappy conversion only happens in the presence of Hanging Gardens. That makes it sound more like a bug rather than a feature.

 

[starlifter]

I believe others have documented that the double unhappy conversion only happens in the presence of Hanging Gardens.

That is not my experience, but I don't have time to go back and test for it till later this weekend. The HG connection is new to me; I never noticed that association, myself. As far as I've seen, 2 lux will take a black dude to light blue anytime, HG or not.

But as far as the bug thing goes, it would be interesting to me to know if Brian intended such things, not just this particular thing.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

That is not my experience, ...As far as I've seen, 2 lux will take a black dude to light blue anytime, HG or not.

I confirm that. 2 luxuries make a black hat happy; period.