Help with Prince

[rylmets12]

Happy Holidays everyone!

I'm interested in playing a game of Civ with community guidance in hopes it will improve my game. From what I've seen in other posts, it's best to post save games with screen shots every 10 turns or so. Does this sound right?

The settings I use are prince difficulty with a standard map (Planet Generator 0.68), normal speed, 9 civs, no vassal, no goody huts (random events are on) and no tech brokering. I also often start with a random leader. Same with opponents. Thought I would ask for input on these before I started.

A bit about my experience: I've played Civ IV for years and am what you would most likely consider a novice. I think I have the basic strategy down but lack the long-term thinking. This especially shows when I'm at the end of the game and have no plan how to win. I can win at prince but not consistently. When I do, I kind of stumble into the victory. If there is other background info I can provide, fire away.

Let me know if there is any interest in this and I'll get it started!

Thanks!!

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I'm sure people will help - best to start with No Huts and No Events as these won't help you learn (if you like them you can switch them back on once you have improved a bit) and standard settings (So allow vassals and tech brokering) - as you improve you will see that these things are actually to your benefit!

Best to choose a good leader - probably one of the Financial ones like Darius, Elizabeth, Mansa or Willem van Oranje.

Finally you should have a plan to win after about 100 turns, you shouldn't be waiting until the end!

 

[lymond]

I think I have the basic strategy down...... I can win at prince but not consistently.

Just as a warning and piece of advice as you begin this learn process, prepare to likely throw much of what you think is your "basic strategy" out the window. Prepare to relearn the game.

NZ is correct. Best to learn on standard settings and maps. Not familiar at all with Planet Generator and what it does, but for training games I recommend Pangaea.

Strategy & Tips is the forum for this, and where you want to be spending your time regardless (and there are always folks interested in help players out so just post up a new game over there)

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Moved to Strategy and Tips. Best of luck with your games.

 

[rylmets12]

Thanks for all the feedback everyone (and the move to the right forum). All sounds like good advice for this learning game. Here it is:

Civ/Leader:

Spoiler :

Settings:

Spoiler :

And starting location:

Spoiler :

I would start by moving my settler 1W, settle, begin a worker and research AH. I'd take my warrior south to explore. Any other thoughts? I'll post some more tomorrow!

Save game:

Spoiler :

View attachment Forum Game Turn 0.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[lymond]

You always move your warrior/scout first before moving a settler, if you move the settler.

Regardless, this is a very very very very very bad map roll.

Reroll you game.

Don't not use Toroidial - settings are otherwise fine

Roll a map with a least a +5 or +6 food start. (note: this is not that folks don't play challenging start, but rather for the purpose of learning)

 

[rylmets12]

I agree it looked like a tough start and this is a learning game! How about this:



Here I would take my warrior and go 1 NW but almost certainly SIP. Sometimes I'd consider building a work boat first because of the clam/fishing starting tech but because the corn is there, I would start with a worker. As for tech, I would do mining then bronze working, otherwise my worker wouldn't have much to do. Thoughts?

Here's the saved game again:

Spoiler :

View attachment Forum Game Turn 0_b.CivBeyondSwordSave

I did change from toroidial to cylindrical. All other settings are the same. Note: there are 7 total Civs in this game, not 9.

Thanks!

 

[lymond]

This is much better. Even though coastal, the wet corn is tremendously better to start with.

Question: what is the most important thing in this game?

SIP is certainly viable here, and a good move. The warrior 1NW is a good move. 1W might be good too due to the hill for more scouting range, but I forget at the moment what view it gives you from that spot to the north.

An argument could be made to consider settling 1NW on the PH for the bonus hammer to city center tile. In fact, it could very well be the right move here. You have to ask yourself, "well, I might strand that poor clam out at sea." However, based on what we see now we know that the clam can be used by a city, although probably one that will require a galley to settle - not such a bad thing really for trade routes. However, you don't want to completely strand a food resource if you don't know otherwise.

The important thing here to note though is to analyze your start. Move your starting unit - warrior/scout - in an appropriate manner to reveal tiles that may benefit your settling position. Think about the resources and possible bonuses of such a move. Generally, you can never go wrong with SIP, but there can be benefits to moving the settler.

Worker first is absolutely the best move here and you are correct to go Mining>BW. Work boats are not important now with the corn and can always be chopped out later after BW.

edit: To be more direct, move the warrior and post a screenshot. 1NW is fine

 

[Noble Zarkon]

I'm with Lymond - move the Warrior 1NW and post a screenshot. As well as food and production you need commerce and as you are Financial the Clam will provide some so I'm leaning SIP at the moment , but it will depend what lese you can see.

 

[rylmets12]

Not much revealed. I understand thinking about settling the plains/hills and that the farther out clam resource can most likely be used by another city. I would still SIP though because 1) I want my capital to be as strong as possible (i.e. have the third clam) and 2) moving the settler puts the south plains/hills out of reach for my Capital. I would lose overall production. Are these the right things to be thinking about?

This is much better. Even though coastal, the wet corn is tremendously better to start with

Can you elaborate on why a coastal start is less ideal?

Question: what is the most important thing in this game?

Food.

Edit: added more of my thought process

 

[Lexicus]

Can you elaborate on why a coastal start is less ideal?

Generally, water tiles are less productive than land tiles. Even in the case when you have sea resources, accessing them requires spending hammers on work boats, which are consumed after building 1 improvement--whereas a worker can continue to improve tiles throughout the rest of the game.

2) moving the settler puts the south plains/hills out of reach for my Capital. I would lose overall production. Are these the right things to be thinking about?

Those are the right things to be thinking about, but you are valuing "overall production" too highly, imo. You may lose the southern plains hill by moving 1NW but you will gain an immediate extra hammer in the city center from settling on a plains hill, and that extra bonus in the initial turns is likely going to be a much more important than the long-run gain from having some extra hammer tiles in the big cross.

It's important to realize that it will be a long, long time before your capital is actually working every tile in its big cross (if indeed it ever gets to that point) so accepting some marginal tiles to get one or two very good tiles is usually a good trade.

This is one of the things I've had to work on, it is tempting to look at what a city can give the whole game but it will really improve your play if you think in terms of what you can get in the immediate short-term. Early gains are proportionally much more powerful than later gains, even if the later gain might be actually larger in magnitude.

In this case since the warrior hasn't revealed anything of interest to the NW I would say SIP is the best move here.

 

[lymond]

Food.

Good answer


Yep, Lexicus is basically right no both counts. Coastal starts, especially with seafood can be a bit slower to work with, and you have to think out the best starting strategy based on starting techs - whether to go worker or work boat first.

In this case, you have the corn so it is a no brainer to go worker first, even if you have a few missed worker turns waiting for BW. At least you can start that path immediately with Willie.

While I can understand you thinking on the lost PH, PH are really not that great a tile as they are food deficit to work. So settling on the PH is probably the best thing to do here. SIP is fine as well, but the other option is better. I'll let you make that choice yourself though.

I suggest settling and starting your worker while teching Mining>BW. Start scouting with your warrior in a circular radius around you capital..not more than 10 tile radius. Hug the coast as well to reveal tiles. Main purpose for that warrior is scouting potential city sites and then setting up to spawnbust and area for barbs...likely near your first spot. So post again once the worker is complete.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

The important thing here to note though is to analyze your start. Move your starting unit - warrior/scout - in an appropriate manner to reveal tiles that may benefit your settling position. Think about the resources and possible bonuses of such a move. Generally, you can never go wrong with SIP, but there can be benefits to moving the settler.

All good advice - when analysing your start be sure to take your traits and starting techs into account. As you are Financial and start with Fishing SIP looks quite attractive but there are strong arguments for settling on the Plains Hill as well, but just be aware that takes you away from fresh water (less of an issue on Prince).

 

[lymond]

Well, go ahead and SIP here then. I think that is more than fine. The fresh water does not hurt. Also, slim possibility of even more seafood, although that could probably be used for another city. Looks like a possible strat resource 2S as well.

 

[rylmets12]

Generally, water tiles are less productive than land tiles. Even in the case when you have sea resources, accessing them requires spending hammers on work boats, which are consumed after building 1 improvement--whereas a worker can continue to improve tiles throughout the rest of the game.

All really good advice. Especially this explanation which I've not thought about before. Thanks all!

Can someone elaborate what the advantage being next to fresh water gets me? Also, what makes 2S look like a potential strategic resource?

Here's the update on the game. I started taking my warrior north but did not find much. On about turn 4, my borders popped revealing corn and cow to the south. I took a gamble going north one more turn, saw ice, and headed back south towards the new found resources.

On turn 5, I was greeted by Pericles/Greece's scout. He went west into the fog.



On turn 9, Mao/China's scout popped up and continued east. This same turn, Christianity was founded (I have choose religions on)



By turn 15, my worker completed and here is where I stand:



Here are my thoughts: I have not discovered a great second city location, but corn/cow is not bad. The two civs revealing themselves this early is extremely concerning. I know I should take my worker and farm the corn but am not too sure what next. Is there a certain tile I should chop first? Do I chop AND make an improvement or just chop? Once BW is complete, I would research hunting next to get some scouts. My gut tells me to take my warrior 1 NE and head in that direction. It may be locked land but Greece came from there and thought it would be worth exploring. I chose warrior as my next build figuring I will need one to escort a future settler.

Appreciate any feedback! Thanks!!

Here's the save: View attachment Forum Game Turn 15.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Noble Zarkon]

On my phone so can't comment properly but one piece of advice is to take things very slow at first. The opening 100 turns are critical so don't rush through them, no more than 1 or 2 at a time of you want benefit of advice.

 

[Lexicus]

Can someone elaborate what the advantage being next to fresh water gets me? Also, what makes 2S look like a potential strategic resource?

Fresh water gives a health bonus, which is comparatively less useful on lower difficulty levels because you get a health bonus just from the difficulty. I forget what the exact numbers are but the tables are available on the site somewhere. Fresh water gives (IIRC 2 health).

You can look at health and happiness yourself in the city screen. You want to learn how to make sense of those displays as they (well, mostly happiness) will greatly affect how you manage your cities.

2S looks like a potential strategic resource because it is a gap in the forest. It may well just be a random variation in the terrain, but since tiles with metals and horses never have forest on them, it could pop one of those resources when you discover AH/BW/IW.

Here are my thoughts: I have not discovered a great second city location, but corn/cow is not bad. The two civs revealing themselves this early is extremely concerning. I know I should take my worker and farm the corn but am not too sure what next. Is there a certain tile I should chop first? Do I chop AND make an improvement or just chop? Once BW is complete, I would research hunting next to get some scouts. My gut tells me to take my warrior 1 NE and head in that direction. It may be locked land but Greece came from there and thought it would be worth exploring. I chose warrior as my next build figuring I will need one to escort a future settler.


With your worker you should certainly farm the corn. At some point I would chop a work boat or two to work some of those seafood tiles, but getting the corn up first is better.

Someone else can explain fogbusting to you because that's one of the weaker areas of my game.

The corn/cow is the obvious place to settle next, though a better location might present itself. You should explore a ring of ~10 tiles around your capital first and then move toward where you think the AIs are, but I wouldn't let your warriors get too far from the capital: you'll want them for fogbusting and dealing with barbarians. Keeping the fog busted is more important than garrisoning cities at this point because on Prince the happy cap won't be a problem for some time.

 

[rylmets12]

Fresh water gives a health bonus, which is comparatively less useful on lower difficulty levels because you get a health bonus just from the difficulty. I forget what the exact numbers are but the tables are available on the site somewhere. Fresh water gives (IIRC 2 health).

Got it. Didn't know that. Looking at the city, I get +2 for fresh water, +2 for difficulty and +5 for the forests.

On my phone so can't comment properly but one piece of advice is to take things very slow at first. The opening 100 turns are critical so don't rush through them, no more than 1 or 2 at a time of you want benefit of advice.

Thanks. I can slow it down!

 

[lymond]

ok, ryl..I'll answer your questions first and then gives some pointers on the game:

Can someone elaborate what the advantage being next to fresh water gets me?

Fresh water from settling next to a river or lake provides a boost to health to the city. It is something to consider when analyzing your start, but not usually the most important consideration

Also, what makes 2S look like a potential strategic resource?

It's not a certainty here, but sometimes you get suspicious looking tiles when surrounded by forest. In this case it is not surrounded by forest, but the flatness of the adjacent trees makes me suspicious that it is copper, horses or iron. Ofc, it could be a resource that is revealed much later like uranium.

I would research hunting next to get some scouts

This is actually a common mistake by less experienced players. Scouts are wasted hammers. Hunting does not really give you much here otherwise. I would probably go TW>POT>Writing>Alpha path here and backfill some of the little techs with trading. However, the land may change that decision. Regardless, TW>POT is probably good. Argument could be made to go AH if Copper does not appear and since there are grass cows down south. We can wait a few turns on that decision.

1) I'm little bit confused by the warrior movement. I think you said you first went North. Now he is down south, so I can only assume that you basically retraced your steps as opposed to actually scouting. A more circuitous route to the W and S from that Northern position would have been best. Again you want the warrior to not go to far..say 10 tiles in either direction, but you want to always be revealing the fog.

2) Yes, improve that corn first. Chops will come next. Ideally you chop a tile that can be improved like a mine, but the hills will require some movement, so probably best to Chop the tile 1SW of the city first, then you can move to improve copper, if it appears or move to the grass hill to chop/mine. (always improve grass hills over plains hills, especially next to rivers)

3) Civs revealing themselves early on a Pangaea map is not concerning at all. It is great. Either it gives you a chance to kill someone fast or get foreign trade routes up faster.

4) Based on where the warrior is now, and given the panther, I would move indeed move E. Try to zig/zag through the fog and use hills when possible to reveal more around you. In this case, warrior can probably move 1NE and then 2E, then zig/zig around that area to reveal tiles and coast.

Your next warrior can head W

5) somewhere around that cow/corn is probably next city..good city. I think 1NE of corn is best.

I recommend finishing BW and then a quick check in

edit: Yep, NZ is correct to play slow. You are doing great so far at this pace. 10 turns at most is probably a good number, but when we are here helping you we might suggest a stopping point for a check-in like I just did, which may be shorter or longer than 10 turns.

oh..and try to dodge the animals if you can when scouting. Note where the are on a given turn so you don't step adjacent to them. I think you get a couple of freebies on barb attacks, but best to save those for later. Not a big deal though, but you do want your warriors to survive if at all possible

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Had a look now - not too disastrous but going slower would have enabled you to benefit from the advice re scouting. Agree with lymond that finishing BW and checking in is a good idea and hunting is a very bad one!