Hermetic Lore for FFH DI5

[Elder Methyl]

Yeah, I'll get around to it some time tommorow or in the next few days.

 

[Lplate]

I think thematically the good gods shouldn't backstab eachother but evil gods should be open to that (to compensate for more power).

Esus will be spreading distrust between all Gods; Evil, Good and Neutral. The Good Gods may be loyal to the One but that doesn't mean they want other Precepts to become dominant over their own. All Gods have their own plans, so some level of conflict is possible between any of them.

If Lugus started revealing every secret, where mortals had sworn not to tell, this could upset Junil as it devalues the power of oaths. Esus might also be annoyed (or possibly overjoyed) depending on the nature of the revealed secrets.

Possible opening for a conversation between Esus and Junil

Spoiler :

The ranks of angels all turned as one on sensing the intruder. Sabathiel stood on the topmost stair. He stepped down and suddenly it was Sphener. He continued down the long flight of stairs, with his appearance changing from that of one angel to another until he reached the bottom and then Junil faced himself.

"What are you doing in my Vault", one roared.
"I just came for a friendly chat.", the other purred.
"We have nothing in common and nothing to say to each other."
"Those differences are precisely why I wanted to talk to you. You're as straight as an arrow and always will be. I used to take pride in how all our brothers and sisters would be on guard when talking to me, as they tried to spot the lies and guess at my thoughts. Now, they're all at it. Mammon had schemes within schemes. . . Sirona whispers with Lugus. . . Ceridwen writes her plots so large, noone can stand back far enough to read them. You alone can be trusted. You alone will stand by your oath. I'm here because even if all you can say is something I don't want to hear, at least I know you'll mean it."
"I want you to go!"
"You see, I believe you. We know where we stand with one another, which is why, of all the Gods, you are the one who should feel free to call on me whenever you'd like my help."
As he spoke, one of the Junils faded til he was little more than a shadow and then, that was gone.

Okay, so the opening reached an end. The ending (and the rest of the conversation) can be reworked.

Short snippet within a conversation with another God

Spoiler :

"So, what did Oghma want?"
"Oghma? I haven't seen him in ages."
"Oh . . . right . . . my mistake."

 

[Derf]

I've got it set up, so if necessary I can handle it once we start.

 

[Bad Player]

Bad_Player,

Spoiler :

If it's okay with you and Order is founded by a different CIV, I'd like to build the first Temple of the Order for the Kuriotates. The founder will worship Junil (just worship Esus more). I don't have a specific plan for him yet but I don't want everyone to be shocked if I use an Order priest in a story. When the temple is built, there'll just be a sleeper agent in it. If the Kuriotates found Order, I'd like to found this temple in a different civ as I'll probably be able to use that in a story instead.

Lplate:

Spoiler :

I'm going to be trying to encourage Verdian and other civs to follow the Order so I might ask him to found The Order (or at least research it even if he isn't first) or would that be a problem?

I'm fine with a sleeper agent though in an Order temple.

I'm going to want Verdian and others to primarily follow me or would that be a problem?

 

[Bad Player]

A Mega Plot

Spoiler :

This plotline would directly involve at least one other God and the scale means I'd like feedback on if this is too excessive.
The preferred God to work with on this is Mammon as Esus would ask Mammon to release a dead hero from his hell as an investment. In time Mammon would get back that hero and the hero would lead an army of souls willingly into his hell.
It could also involve Camulos. The more of the different Hells the hero is exposed to, the more convinced he will be. Camulos gets a big war out of it.
The hero is allowed to pass through one or two of the vaults of hell and is then returned to Erebus. Thanks to Esus, he's convinced that he is in Esus's shadow Erebus. He convinces others of this belief (maybe Mammon might also give him Command I). He tells them that to escape from this false Erebus, they must exit via one of the supposed "Gates into Hell". A war is started between his CIV and either the Sheaim or whoever controls Bradeline's Well. He leads an army. Once they take a Sheaim city (planar gate) or reach Bradeline's Well, all of this army is removed (as they freely enter hell).
"Witnesses" then appear in cities around Erebus telling how the hero is leading his people out of hell.

What's the impact on the Kuriotates?
No direct impact. There's a war, so they may choose to take sides. If they separate the armies, they may be asked for Open Borders to facilitate the war. If there are no Sheaim in the game I'd like Bradeline's Well positioned at the start of the game, so that it is unlikely to be in Kuriotate's territory.

What's in it for Mammon?
Lots of free souls choosing to enter his hell.
What's in it for Camulos?
War
What's in it for Esus?
The idea of people choosing to freely enter hell in the belief that they are taking the first steps out of hell is sublime to him. It also spreads massive doubt throughout Erebus about the true nature of Erebus itself.

What's in it for me?
Apart from fleshing out the story above, in the aftermath I can do "Inception" type suicide stories and "Matrix" red or blue pill type decision stories.

 

[Bad Player]

About the mega-plot

Spoiler :

I'd note that the Sheaim leader Tebryn Arbandi already has a similar backstory of escaping from hell. So if he is in the game you might hook the Sheaim into the story as an ally of the army rather than their target. Lore-wise, I think that the planar gates lead into Cerdiwen's realm rather than into the hells, though that still might be a good escape. Bradeline's well may be the best target and we might want to place it at the start in a suitable location. I'd suggest placing it near a good civ's starting location, and not so far from the Kuriotates that he couldn't intervene if he chose to. Later armies could try to escape through portals to hell that various evil gods open at different locations.

You also need to consider how you will get the AI armies to move toward these portals, though. Mechanically, it might be difficult, unless you want the armies to draw an entire civ into war with the Sheaim or the owner of Bradeline's Well.

On the mechanics of it:
What makes AI move to a specific location? Does a treasure chest spawned from a dungeon event make AI of one civ move towards it?

Are you going to write some python code for the plot that kills any unit of a certain civ once it enters the plot (I think that could be done - Kael made some notes about plot counters and stuff somewhere IIRC).

MagisterCuultum (or snaarko/Sephi) should be able to tell you the required code for killing any units of a certain civ that enters a plot.

-----------------------------------------

The other option that you mentioned is to have a war and a choke point that they will likely pass through (with Brandeline's well in that choke point). I assume it would be easy to code something that will kill all units of a certain civ which enter a specific tile (Brandeline's well) - or group of tiles surrounding Brandeline's well (so that it doesn't have to be a narrow choke point).

 

[Bad Player]

Is 50 turns between breaks (where the gods can do stuff) too much?? Especially for complex plots I would think maybe 20-30 turns would be better...

If it's every 50 turns then you might only get 4-6 interventions realistically IMHO.

 

[Derf]

From reading the thread for the previous DI game, 50 turns seemed to work fairly well there. It allows time for the mortals to get something done, without having the gods getting underfoot too much.

 

[Bad Player]

Could I suggest that we gods come to an agreement on how much stuff we can do each turn (excluding special things that we agree upon such as building Brandeline's well in a specific spot, etc).

So things like how much we can do to spread a religion, how much gold we can give, how much terraforming we can do per turn.

 

[Lplate]

If both the Elohim and Sheaim exist in the game

Should we ask Verdian to specifically include certain civs in the game setup?

As regards the mechanics of plots:

Spoiler :

I won't be writing any python for use in the DI game. If people come up with some interesting features, I might do a modmod to allow them to be used in normal games.
As I understand it, as the Gods, we'll only get to intervene every 50 turns.

For the Mega Plot war, my original (mechanics) planwas very vulnerable to an uncooperative AI.

On reconsidering, I think it will be more controlled and work better with the following plan
God Turn x: a God arranges for the death of a hero (or a hero dies naturally in the game). Story about hero's death.
Turn x+1:the hero is returned to the capital with the Held promo. Story about the hero's return and preaching that Erebus is really Esus's hell.
Turn x+2: the city nearest to Bradeline's Well is converted to the ownership of the hero's CIV. Hero is removed. Hero's CIV and former owner CIV of city nearest Bradeline's Well are set to War. A Held Balor or something similar is positioned on Bradeline's Well. Story about sneak attack led by the hero triggering the war. Stories about the Witnesses explaining the exodus of the hero and his army via Bradeline's Well.
Turn x+3: follow-up stories based on the Witnesses propaganda

As regards how much a God can do in any turn, I think the best approach is to discuss it in advance on this thread. Better to agree in advance than have Dagda try to temper everyone's excesses. In the first turn everyone should be planning features and plot hooks to place on the map. These can be added later but it's better to have them in place before an area is explored by the player or other civs.

 

[Bad Player]

Are you still planning on deleting units? How would you do that?

 

[Lplate]

The World Builder has an Erase function.

Be careful when using it as it will remove all units, features and improvements on a tile. If you only want to remove some, make sure you note anything on the tile that you don't want to delete (might be better if I put the hero beside the capital).

 

[Derf]

Better solution - while on the tool that allows placement of units, right-clicking a tile will remove one unit there. Also, if you have say a Scout selected in the list of units and you right click a stack in which there are several kinds of units, it will first remove a scout, then if there are no scouts it will remove other units.

 

[Bad Player]

But you would only remove units which are in Brandeline's well on every 50th turn (breaks) or could you know which units have been in that tile at any time and delete them during the break?

 

[Elder Methyl]

More Plot Ideas:

Spoiler :

Sirona will also take an interest in High-level Religious and Arcane Units in her plans.

 

[Bad Player]

As Junil, an idea for a quest is:

Spoiler :

Ask Kuriotates to explore in the direction of another good civ. This gives them a friend and helps good civs which kind of helps my goals.

Is that a decent starting quest?

 

[Lplate]

Another feature to go on the map, inspired by the bestiary
Ashton

Spoiler :

I'll place a named Town named Ashton on the map and instructions for Verdian to read a spoiler after entering it.
Town is truly a ruin occupied by mistforms.
In the first God turn after it's entered, I replace the town with a Ruin and place two Held Mistforms in it.I feel I should be nice and provide some reward, so I'll give a first tier tech after he enters it.

In the next God Turn, I remove the Held promos.

Junil's Quest

Spoiler :

Junil's starting quest looks good. As he's the God of Oaths you could follow it up by asking the Kuriotates to make a treaty with them, e.g. to promise to defend them from evil, i.e. An early God inspired defence pact against evil.

Bradeline's Well

Spoiler :

With my revised plan for the mechanics, I'm avoiding creating and removing lots of troops. After the initial story of the exodus, I'll be placing a guardian on the BW tile and I won't use it as an exit point in future stories. I don't plan on deleting any units on Bradeline's Well on the turn of the exodus or in the subsequent God's turns.

I've managed to think of an initial quest from Esus

Spoiler :

One of the palace guards will suggest building a palisade. Palisades and Walls are statements that you don't trust the people on the other side of them. If its done before turn 50, I'll give the warrior in the city the city defender promotion (paranoia makes them ever watchful). Any other civs which have a palisade in place by turn 50, get the same promo.

Is this stretching the Precept too far?

Planned blurb

Spoiler :

Quintien worked with the other men establishing their new home. A few houses had been finished, and now he was working on the hall which would be the heart of their new city. As a former palace guard, he looked again at the building under construction - it would be a long time before this could rival the palace of Kwythellar.
"It's not palaces we should be thinking of", he thought. He looked around to see Dallarin in conversation with Lord Rabish. Back in Kwythellar and now in this new land, Lord Rabish was known as Dallarin's Rabbit - he looks harmless but his big ears hear everything. Dallarin's Rabbit was the first to know of the planned purge of the Dragon Cult. With his connections, he could have easily distanced himself from the Cult. Instead, he warned Dallarin and then stood by him when sent into exile. As Lord Rabish bowed and stepped away from Dallarin, Quintien made his way over.
"If you'll forgive me my lord, I think we're building the wrong things. This is a strange, new land and we don't know who or what is out there. For now, we need to assume that whoever finds us is going to be an enemy. We should establish a palisade to provide some protection against the natives."

OOC Spoiler

Spoiler :

If a palisade is built, before turn 50, the warrior in the city will get the City Garrison I promotion. Other civs which build a palisade will get the same promo.
Note: Quintien and Rabish may feature in a few of the stories but they don't need to be named units in the game.

Just read Verdian's opening. It probably isn't an issue if certain civs aren't shown on the map. If we want to use them in a story, it could be said that they originated on whichever continent Dallarin was banished from.

 

[Lplate]

Me again.


I won't be "getting it" til Monday night at the earliest.

Lanun

Spoiler :

If the Lanun are establishing their own colony at the same time as bringing the Kuriotates into exile, it makes sense for the two civs to have established contact.

Perhaps the sea route linking their starting locations should be revealed to the Lanun. Danalin or Dagda can make a call on that one.

With the Lanun in contact with the Kuriotates, I'll do a quick story on the discovery and break up if a smugglers' ring on turn 50. I'll use it as a justification to encourage the researching of Trade by the Kuriotates.

Twailic

Spoiler :

I've thought of an additional feature and minor plot. I'll put a Tower/Hut of Twailic on the map. Several God turns in, a character will mention that Twailic is a very powerful illusionist that the Kuriotates should try and recruit. If they complete the quest, they get a Hall of Mirrors in their capital or whichever city Verdian picks. If they don't, one of the other civs gets the Hall of Mirrors.

Is their a promotion which removes the upkeep cost of a unit? If we're giving Verdian Held units that he can't use for 50 turns, it would be good if we make sure they are not a drain on the economy.

 

[Elder Methyl]

Would it be too much to place Angels at several UFs (not Bradeline's Well unless Lplate says otherwise). Also, I'd like to give the 'Blessed' promotion to the Elohim's Scout.

 

[Lplate]

The settings for the game include all unique features, so you should definitely be able to fit Angels in on a few of them. Please don't put one on BW. You may want to reposition some of the unique features if they're central to your plans.

Blessed is a nice promo to make him a little more survivable from the start. Are you planning on developing the scout as a hero of Sirona?