"Hi, my name is Ahmed and I want to be a suicide bomber"

[Trajan12]

But under a government change, to say something more democratic, such bigotry would not be accepted. The problem does not originate in Islam, but in the tyrannical leadership. Muslims in America do not have the same problem as those in the Middle East, because we have a superior government, not because the Middle Easterners have an inferior culture.

They follow these laws and give them credence because there are surrahs that say they can and sheiks and Imams that say it is ok. Secularism is all that can save them. Meaning, in effect that they have to remove Islamic law and other bad practices to move forward.

 

[Winner]

But under a government change, to say something more democratic, such bigotry would not be accepted. The problem does not originate in Islam, but in the tyrannical leadership. Muslims in America do not have the same problem as those in the Middle East, because we have a superior government, not because the Middle Easterners have an inferior culture.

Their governments are undemocratic and anti-liberal, because their culture is undemocratic and anti-liberal. If they at least seeked democratic government, it would be a sign that they don't like the way they live, but as it appears, in most of Muslim countries, the regime is everything except democratic.

Muslims in America usually accept certain cultural traits of Western culture. That makes them easier to assimilate.

On the other hand, look at Europe - large muslim minorities often live under "superior" government, but they still perform poorly - high unemployment, low education, high crime etc. It's their culture what keeps them down.

 

[Atlas14]

Yes. Civilization, as I perceive it, should constantly seek an improvment, advance. If you stagnate, you're less civilized, in my opinion. That's the main difference between civilization and barbarism - civilization builds, invent, create new things and ideas. Barbarians just live, without making any real progress. That's what happened to Islam.

What is wrong with not making progress? Actually comfortable lifestyles can be found in Amish communities, anything in excess is merely that, mostly arbirtary modern upgrades. Don't get me wrong, I love our modern culture, but Amish culture is just as awesome as we are. The only real need for this progress you speak of is military technology. But if we are so opposed to the Middle East terrorizing us, perhaps less modern technology is a beneficial thing.

 

[Atlas14]

Their governments are undemocratic and anti-liberal, because their culture is undemocratic and anti-liberal. If they at least seeked democratic government, it would be a sign that they don't like the way they live, but as it appears, in most of Muslim countries, the regime is everything except democratic.

Muslims in America usually accept certain cultural traits of Western culture. That makes them easier to assimilate.

On the other hand, look at Europe - large muslim minorities often live under "superior" government, but they still perform poorly - high unemployment, low education, high crime etc. It's their culture what keeps them down.

They perform well in America. The government restricts such democratic thought. People are not allowed to express progressive views and speak out against the tyranny. Don't you see? Their culture appears to be backwards because of their governments.

 

[REDY]

Their governments are undemocratic and anti-liberal, because their culture is undemocratic and anti-liberal. If they at least seeked democratic government, it would be a sign that they don't like the way they live, but as it appears, in most of Muslim countries, the regime is everything except democratic.

Muslims in America usually accept certain cultural traits of Western culture. That makes them easier to assimilate.

On the other hand, look at Europe - large muslim minorities often live under "superior" government, but they still perform poorly - high unemployment, low education, high crime etc. It's their culture what keeps them down.

Well the reforms were and are slowly, but you cant say that Arab states dont doing it. The situation came more radical because they feel that they are in danger. For example Iran and Syria are in bibg trouble, around them are big armies, nuclear power has Americans, Israelis, Pakistan....I realy understand that they have fear. And on Iran´s univeristy is large anti-goverment feelings. I think that regime would be more free because not fear about own country. Normal young Iranians want live like in other states, but regime is theocracy.

 

[Winner]

They perform well in America. The government restricts such democratic thought. People are not allowed to express progressive views and speak out against the tyranny. Don't you see? Their culture appears to be backwards because of their governments.

No.

You are confusing result with the cause. Western liberal democracy evolved in the West simply because this government is best suited to govern the individualist and free-thinking Westerners. Chinese meritocratic empire is, analagously, the government that is best suited to Chinese confucian views.

Theocratic authoritarian pseudo-democracy is, I am afraid, the form of government that is best suited to Islamic culture.

 

[Atlas14]

No.

You are confusing result with the cause. Western liberal democracy evolved in the West simply because this government is best suited to govern the individualist and free-thinking Westerners. Chinese meritocratic empire is, analagously, the government that is best suited to Chinese confucian views.

Theocratic authoritarian pseudo-democracy is, I am afraid, the form of government that is best suited to Islamic culture.

I am afraid that is not the case. Perhaps that was true 800 years ago or whenever, but not so anymore. You would be surprised what a little freedom over there to think and act for themselves would do. And first of all, take the women as an example. You are assuming the women like being inferior to men, wearing veils 24/7 in public, and having less rights than men. That is so blatantly false I do not know where to begin. Given a democratic government, the whole culture would be restructured considerably. The women would have more rights, and thus would take a more active role in the economy and government. People would speak out against the oppressive religious teachers and figures. In fact, you are the one blaming the Muslims for having their head stuck in the Middle Ages, but you are the one.

 

[MamboJoel]

I think it is pretty obvious.

Ok. Write it in one sentence.
And if done with this sentence, a second one to define your proposal to resolve the problem.

 

[Winner]

Ok. Write it in one sentence.
And if done with this sentence, a second one to define your proposal to resolve the problem.

The issue is too complicated to be put into one sentence, but basically, I claim that Islamic culture is, because of its inherent values that contradict the Western values (individualism vs tribalism, secularism vs fundamentalism, emancipation vs misogynism etc.), incompatible with the Western culture, which is the cause of the current strife. It is a true clash of cultures.

How to resolve the problem? I don't know, certainly I can't tell in one sentence. I prefer separation and isolation from this civilization. We should go our separate ways and minimize contact with each other, because the more time we spent together, the more we dislike each other. The West should get rid of dependance on the Middle Eastern oil and stop immigration from Muslim countries, as well as all aid that goes to these countries. On the other hand, Western countries should avoid intervening into their internal affairs by force.

Hopefully the Islamic civilization will reform in time to put up with modern world, or it will collapse, either way, the conflict will be resolved.

 

[REDY]

How to resolve the problem? I don't know, certainly I can't tell in one sentence. I prefer separation and isolation from this civilization. We should go our separate ways and minimize contact with each other, because the more time we spent together, the more we dislike each other. The West should get rid of dependance on the Middle Eastern oil and stop immigration from Muslim countries, as well as all aid that goes to these countries. On the other hand, Western countries should avoid intervening into their internal affairs by force..

I think that poltroon cant help. We have to settle clear conditions and help muslim countries develop to same level. And perosonally I think we may also learn something useful.

I read one interesting event in university newspapers. It was from some Tocqueville´s book. French were fighting againist Iroquies. French allies, Hurons, killed some Iroquies and ate them. When French saw it, they find it as disgusting. But they captured iroqueis furs. When Hurons saw it, they were also completely disgusted.

 

[Winner]

I think that poltroon cant help. We have to settle clear conditions and help muslim countries develop to same level. And perosonally I think we may also learn something useful.

Why should we? They get huge money from oil revenues. They should use it to develop themselves and other brothers in faith - why should we, infidel Westerners, do that for them?

What should we learn? How to stone raped women? Thanks, I think we know everything we need.

 

[REDY]

Why should we? They get huge money from oil revenues. They should use it to develop themselves and other brothers in faith - why should we, infidel Westerners, do that for them?

What should we learn? How to stone raped women? Thanks, I think we know everything we need.

I think that if you want build "fortress Europe" you are foolishly wrong. The oil? Oil is about nothing when are civil wars, and I am not talking only about economical help to wealth paternal-autocraties, they will do it by their own with American influence in their counry. Its not for them its for us and world.

No, I hadnt mean stone raped women. And its only unofficial, againist goverment, as threshing women in western countries and tolerancy by neighbours.

 

[Winner]

I think that if you want build "fortress Europe" you are foolishly wrong. The oil? Oil is about nothing when are civil wars, and I am not talking only about economical help to wealth paternal-autocraties, they will do it by their own with American influence in their counry. Its not for them its for us and world.

No, I hadnt mean stone raped women. And its only unofficial, againist goverment, as threshing women in western countries and tolerancy by neighbours.

I don't understand what are you trying to say, except that I am wrong.

I don't think we should support them in any way except trade. We owe them nothing. If they want to kill each other, I am fine with that, because it's their business. We don't need them.

 

[REDY]

We were also isolationist before and who made profit? Hitler. We dont live in only in the Europe, we live in the world.

 

[Winner]

We were also isolationist before and who made profit? Hitler. We dont live in only in the Europe, we live in the world.

You don't get it, obviously. I am not for some kind of isolationist Europe, I just want to reduce our ties with the Islamic world, for the sake of both civilizations. They don't like us and we don't like them. The best option is to keep our relationship with them strictly professional - trade and nothing else. The more we try do interact with them, the more terrorists we breed - isn't that obvious?

They want the West out of Muslim lands? OK, I agree, it is not our business to teach them about human rights and democracy, if they don't like it. But I expect that they will also keep their noses out of the Western issues.

I have no problem with other cultures, because they don't pose a danger to us.

 

[REDY]

...

You don't get it, obviously. I am not for some kind of isolationist Europe, I just want to reduce our ties with the Islamic world, for the sake of both civilizations. They don't like us and we don't like them.
They are our neigbours, if you want or dont want. I dont like Germans, Poles, Slovaks, gypsies, main of Ukrainians and what we can do?

I have no problem with other cultures, because they don't pose a danger to us.
Maybe its because aboriginals are in Australia and hinduists in India? If India or China takes place in middle East, I am sure that your priorities are down.

They want the West out of Muslim lands? OK, I agree, it is not our business to teach them about human rights and democracy, if they don't like it. But I expect that they will also keep their noses out of the Western issues.
Yeah I said it before. We will look how is there civil wars and most evil guy will win.

The more we try do interact with them, the more terrorists we breed - isn't that obvious?
Well we were interacted with them with our bombs, arogance and supporting corrupted leaders. Maybe its time for something better?

 

[Winner]

They are our neigbours, if you want or dont want. I dont like Germans, Poles, Slovaks, gypsies, main of Ukrainians and what we can do?

Then you're a fool. Germans, Poles, Slovaks or Ukrainians are all essentially Europeans, their culture is the same as ours. We live in peace and understanding, and we have mutually beneficial relationship.

You can't really say that about Muslims.

Maybe its because aboriginals are in Australia and hinduists in India? If India or China takes place in middle East, I am sure that your priorities are down.

Be sure of whatever you like, that doesn't make you right. Chinese and Indians already are immigrating to Europe, as well as Latin Americans, Africans and others. The difference is they want to integrate and they want to be useful and productive members of our societies. They are willing to accept our "core culture" and live according to it. Just look at the 2nd generation Vietnamese in Czech rep - they're Czechs like you or me. Why? Because they want to be.

Muslims, on the other hand, usually want to remain what they are - Muslims. They have no desire to become true Europeans, which is why they're so problematic.

Yeah I said it before. We will look how is there civil wars and most evil guy will win.

Gods, aren't you using some computer translator?

Anyway, they have to sort out their business, it's their job and we can't do it for them. The more we try to help them, the more they hate us.

Well we were interacted with them with our bombs, arogance and supporting corrupted leaders. Maybe its time for something better?

No, it is the time to leave them alone. I don't care about what they do so long as it doesn't affect me in a negative way.

 

[MamboJoel]

Ok, thanks for explaning your point.
I understand that you create a separation that is clearly artificial in todays world. What is sad about that, is that it's exactly the objective of the extremists from both sides. And I agree of course, one of the two is much more visible, obvious.
They want manichaeism, because when you simplify the world to an extent where there are only two options, two ways of thinking, two actors, you put the population in a situation where if they have a problem they automatically consider the other side was responsible of it.
It's a very efficient tool, the islamist extrmists use it, the Bush administration used it too to manipulate the opinion.
But manichaeism is fallacious and an insult to human intelligence that is opened to understand and create diversity.
And from what I read when you talk about this subject that you want to be black and white, you've been instrumentalized. By positioning on the withe side for instance you give credit to this artificial system, and it's not the black side that you're fighting, it's the entire spectrum of another colors that you're insulting.

 

[Winner]

Ok, thanks for explaning your point.
I understand that you create a separation that is clearly artificial in todays world. What is sad about that, is that it's exactly the objective of the extremists from both sides. And I agree of course, one of the two is much more visible, obvious.
They want manichaeism, because when you simplify the world to an extent where there are only two options, two ways of thinking, two actors, you put the population in a situation where if they have a problem they automatically consider the other side was responsible of it.
It's a very efficient tool, the islamist extrmists use it, the Bush administration used it too to manipulate the opinion.
But manichaeism is fallacious and an insult to human intelligence that is opened to understand and create diversity.
And from what I read when you talk about this subject that you want to be black and white, you've been instrumentalized. By positioning on the withe side for instance you give credit to this artificial system, and it's not the black side that you're fighting, it's the entire spectrum of another colors that you're insulting.

I respectfully disagree. I would like to see a world of many cultures, all living in peace and joy, but that is simply not possible, not now. At first, all civilizations must give up on converting others by force. Until then, we have to defend ourselves the best we can.

 

[REDY]

...

In my district are muslims and they are doing nothing bad! Ukrainians are there drunken and violent. I fighted with 3 Germans in tram only because I said them to not sing loudly German anthem! Againist Vietnamese, they are workholic more than Czechs, but they are also often selling illegal. Poles and Slovaks I dont like by some reasons, but I have some friends. Some media were telling that democracy is not possible in Iraq. I reminded that they same told about Ukraine.

Be sure of whatever you like, that doesn't make you right. Chinese and Indians already are immigrating to Europe, as well as Latin Americans, Africans and others. The difference is they want to integrate and they want to be useful and productive members of our societies. They are willing to accept our "core culture" and live according to it. Just look at the 2nd generation Vietnamese in Czech rep - they're Czechs like you or me. Why? Because they want to be.
No they are not Czechs, they are more workholic than main nunber of Czechs. Maybe they are more western so European culture is crapp?

Muslims, on the other hand, usually want to remain what they are - Muslims. They have no desire to become true Europeans, which is why they're so problematic.
And do you think that Indians and Chinese dont? They have own destricts for example in London, I wasnt in other big cities...Muslims were in Europe in history for all time when Islam started.

Gods, aren't you using some computer translator?

Anyway, they have to sort out their business, it's their job and we can't do it for them. The more we try to help them, the more they hate us.
No, it is the time to leave them alone. I don't care about what they do so long as it doesn't affect me in a negative way.

No I am using my English, I dont care about "is" or "are", you should laughing about my opinions and not about my English because I cant improve languages skills without using it. I told it too many times and only to you.