High Production Low Commerce Start

[Fippy]

Yup, Wastin Time used overflow gold a lot in his famous games.

 

[gavenkoa]

I never play the same map twice, unless I forget that I played it before. Let alone 16 times. That doesn't sound like fun to me, and is probably part of the reason you're struggling.

I enable logging of events or write down important events on paper to see if next time I could reach targets earlier.

It is possible to preserve entire game history by copying Saves/single/auto into something like Saves/single/auto-attempt-N and then start a new game. Loading is not fast so I don't do it usually. The new game could be started from intermediate position - if you think your early turns are optimal. And refinement of saves is controlled by My Games/Beyond the Sword/CivilizationIV.ini:

[CONFIG]
autosaveinterval = 10
maxautosaves = 30

Playing the same without comparing with previous attempts is wasteful as a new map could give new experience.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Here are some general pointers for isolation...

• Monarchy is around 800 beakers if you have to tech the full Myst > Med > PH > Monarchy line. This gets you +1 size in all cities, and essentially unlimited in the capitol, but you do have to pay maintenance on all of the warriors you stuff in the capitol. I think this tech path probably only pays off if you have an amazing capitol or if you also have wine so all cities get +2 happiness just from the tech and HR.

Can I say that, as a general guide, always research Monarchy in isolation? It's never a terrible choice.

On emperor and immortal difficulty, I am still undecided about a diversion to Code of Laws. Trying to found a religion is always risky.

 

[gavenkoa]

I am still undecided about a diversion to Code of Laws. Trying to found a religion is always risky.

Do you want to own a religion (with all penalties in relations) or just for trade + path to Civil Service?

 

[Izuul]

Can I say that, as a general guide, always research Monarchy in isolation? It's never a terrible choice.

On emperor and immortal difficulty, I am still undecided about a diversion to Code of Laws. Trying to found a religion is always risky.

Monarchy probably needs to be elaborated on a little in my post. I do think there are plenty of times when I would skip it.

If you get the Mids and go Rep you obviously don't want it.

If you have a Charismatic leader you don't really need it. Size 7 cap with just a monument is fine and you will pretty often have 1 happy resource too.

If you have no happiness you pretty much have to go for it.

There's alot of gray area in the middle though where I'm not even sure when it's correct to go for it. You really just need to be able to work your good cottage tiles so you can grow them - particularly around the cap. Sometimes you can achieve that at smaller sizes with a couple of helper cities. If the land is very high quality with a lot of river tiles, that's definitely an argument for Monarchy.

I think if I can get my cap to size 7 and other cities to size 6 with what's available I'm at least considering skipping Monarchy. Less than that and I would probably go for it in most cases.

 

[Fippy]

More food for more Monarchy
Running 2 scientists in 3 cities (for an academy which is pretty standard in Iso) slows down growth so much,
that we couldn't get much use out of Monarchy if they all run on just 5-6 surplus before scientists.

also comes into play here.
I have seen plenty Iso maps with bad resource balance..like 3 pigs but no granary resources for double health.

 

[Chalybion]

My experience with Immortal isolation games validates what Izuul said - I'm skipping Monarchy as long as I can get two additional happiness, for size 7 in capital/size 6 in others. This includes having a single gold/silver/gems - I am beelining Metal Casting and putting excess production into forges, so whipping a forge will provide the extra +1 happiness.

Generally the bottleneck is research, and there will always be enough production to get granary/library/forge/lighthouse as needed. I usually slow-grow cities on cottages, even/especially non-riverside cottages, and whip rarely and opportunistically. If my cities are below size 6/7 at astro, there aren't enough mature cottages to research post-Astro and the economy stagnates. It might be OK if the game can be finished with Cuirs or cannons, but longer games will be a slog without those cottages

 

[jorissimo]

Sooo... back to the game. 1270 AD.

Spoiler :

My Astro date ended up being 860 AD, but that was more a function of the AI being very backward (I had to self-tech Calendar because they didn't have it and was only able to get Alpha after meeting SB. Fast forward half a millennium and things look a little different. This turned out to be an iso or semi-iso map for almost everyone. The AIs are very synchronized in terms of size, score and tech. They are quickly catching up. I bulbed Edu and currently have 2 GS. The plan is to go Cuirs/Cavs, libbing either Mil Trad or even Rifling, given that I can bulb the Press. Going Natio now for the Taj. I seem to have lost focus a bit. But this is Emperor so I'm not that worried. Already csually pre-building some knights. Cyrus seems like the obvious target. Close and juicy, he has the Mids. Kinda wondering if trading Engi for Optics and Music is worth it. I've also remained religion-free for diplo purposes but switching into Buddhism doesn't seem bad. Will have to do that anyway once I go Theocracy.

 

[jorissimo]

I think I'm beginning to understand what's hard about this map

Spoiler :

I was playing too casually because Emperor. Ended up going in with 27 badly promoted Cavalry and tried to attack Cyrus 3 times (with reloading) from different directions with different tactics (taking the northeastern city directly, waiting for the stack to come out, taking the southwestern, closest city first) and I just could not break through. He had too many Cuirassiers. Going Lib-Cav might not have been the best plan, the Chem beeline would have been better with a bulb. Alternatively, drafting could have been an option. Dropping this game now because I feel like it's served its purpose (getting a fast Astro date) and I need a lot more focus to win these late game wars and feel like I just can't really be bothered. Iso is not just about getting a fast Astro date, it's about breaking through to another continent.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I think I'm beginning to understand what's hard about this map

Spoiler :

I was playing too casually because Emperor. Ended up going in with 27 badly promoted Cavalry and tried to attack Cyrus 3 times (with reloading) from different directions with different tactics (taking the northeastern city directly, waiting for the stack to come out, taking the southwestern, closest city first) and I just could not break through. He had too many Cuirassiers. Going Lib-Cav might not have been the best plan, the Chem beeline would have been better with a bulb. Alternatively, drafting could have been an option. Dropping this game now because I feel like it's served its purpose (getting a fast Astro date) and I need a lot more focus to win these late game wars and feel like I just can't really be bothered. Iso is not just about getting a fast Astro date, it's about breaking through to another continent.

All fair. Thanks a lot for your input jorissimo.

In other news, I'm feeling a bit better about myself because since putting this map aside, I tried a couple of monarch maps that had stumped me two years ago, and beat them both. So that's something at least.

See you on the next one.

 

[jorissimo]

So I couldn't help myself and went back to 740 AD (I didn't have an Astro save unfortunately) to try the Chemistry beeline. It was very easy to trade for the important Medieval techs. I had to self-tech Guilds and I'm researching Gunpowder now (1040-ish) to start building some muskets to go with the cannons while waiting for someone to get Engineering. I have 2 GS ready to bulb Chem. Avoiding Paper kinda hurts on account of little to no map trades, but it's worth it.

 

[jorissimo]

On my current try, I only remembered to switch to Bureau a mere 300 years after getting CS
That's what happens when you try to replay (parts of) games. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I'm much better prepared this time, researching Steel in the 1200s. It also looks like I'll get some use out of my Ballistas
Also:

Spoiler :

I only realized now that Cyrus' southwesternmost city is reachable from my island in exactly one galleon move. I'll launch my attack from there this time, and stuff loads of units into that city by the time has stack arrives from the far east.

 

[jorissimo]

More trial and error:

Spoiler :

Attacked the far southwestern city with 18 units - cannons, knights, ballistas, muskets and some grenadiers in 1400 and then replenished the city until 1440, which is when Cyrus' main stack should have arrived. The problem is, I counted 2-movers, thinking that his 11 or so knights would go ahead of the rest. But he moved the whole stack, so my calculations were off by 4 turns or so. In 1440 I had 38 or so units in total, and began a greedy invading spree, splitting my stack and conquering all 4 westernmost cities, which was done in 1480. However, if I had had my frigates in a slightly different place I could have seen that his gigantic stack was standing just behind city 4. I only moved 1 ballista into the city, but the stack wrecked the partial stack that had attacked the city, accounting for about a third of my force. All gone. So I had to reload all the way back to 1440. I should have had a spy present to track his stack, just calculating is not enough because you don't know the decision-making process behind AI moves. Cyrus here turned out to be a tactical genius, and I a greedy fool. I'm not really sure how to deal with this situation. If I replenish the southwesternmost peninsular city until my close to 40 units are there, and then start marching, the invasion will be very slow, giving Cyrus time to catch up. Doing a blitzkrieg with stack splitting and taking several cities at once is fast but leaves you hopelessly exposed. It's still this focus issue that's bugging me (I'm probably to busy for civ), and it gets worse at every new attempt, which is this whole tilting dynamic I diagnosed in @Gunboat Diplomat .

 

[jorissimo]

This time I pulled it off:

Spoiler :

I played the long game this time. 1535 and I'm at the same point I was in 1480 on the previous try, but this time in a durable manner: his 30-something unit stack is gone. I sat in Ergili (a deplorable city but one with huge strategic importance) until his stack showed up. I followed it with my ships, seeing it first on t205 (see highlight on map), a little later than expected. Then I kept following it until it showed up on the spot marked 4. I had close to 40 units in Ergili by that time, and I slammed them into his stack. First targeted the knights with the ballistas (probably the first time ever I got use out of this UU ) to improve the odds for my cannons and then slammed everything I had into it. After the stack was out of the way, I healed and used my ships to rapidly transport my units around. I shipped 9 of them over to take out Sardis, while the main stack marched on Bactra. I used the Rajavihara (island) - Ergili - Hittite triangle to bring units over from the mainland and then ship them to the front line on the next turn. That's how I quickly got reinforcements to attack Hittite. Cyrus now has Astro and he's closing in on Chemistry, but I have Ships of the Line. He's still a long way away from Rifling. I'll probablybe able to cap him once I take the next city but I really want to get Persepolis for the Mids, and then I might as well take the remaining 2 cities (hoping he doesn't peace vassal to anyone in the meantime). The big question is what's next. SB is one of the most advanced AIs, and is ahead of me in tech. He has access to the same top units I do,cannons and grenadiers. After taking out Cyrus I might tech up for a while until I have Communism and Assembly Line. Or just go space with 20 cities like @a pen-dragon would do.

When it comes to foreign affairs, both HC and KK have been plotting for a while. HC is probably plotting on SB, his worst enemy, as he is stacking troops in Cuzco, across from Nanih Waiyu (SB). KK cannot get to me as he doesn't have Astro. He's probably preparing for a second attempt to conquer Ethiopia, but Zara has Rifling. I managed to trade Chem for RR with the latter.

 

[jorissimo]

1650:

Edit: corrected the tech situation screenshot.

Spoiler :

The year is 1650 AD and I completely wiped out Persia. No yearn to join motherland BS, hooray! My war-weary economy is in shambles. I'm crawling towards Communism, which will provide instant relief. The AI are catching up, I'm not exactly behind in tech but also definitely not ahead. I would like to just tech up, get Oxford and stuff, hopefully get Ecbatana's stone. SB's culture looks intimidating, and he managed to sneak a city in ("An...") next to the gold. Pasargadae got its border pop but did not get access to the first ring. I should probably take out SB, but I think I'll wait for modern warfare for that. He coaxed me into converting to Christianity, which I accepted because I couldn't deal with a war right now (he was Cautious). My problem now is that the only way to spread it around my home continent is to switch to OrgRel (I'll need to do a big switcharoo soon anyway). With some back settling I could get to 24 cities, which should be ample for space, but SBs culture turns some of the better cities useless.

 

[jorissimo]

1850 AD, how am I doing?

Spoiler :

I'm kind of catching up, and leading in all of the key demographics except GNP. Decided to take the Bio - Refrigeration route after Assembly Line to deal with any unhealthiness. Also traded for some techs on the way. Now I'm teching Combustion and then probably Flight first or Industrialism first. SB doesn't seem dangerous at all and I'm I can take him. Ramesses on the other hand, seems pretty much runaway and he is currently plotting. He has significant troop concentrations (but no transports as far as I can tell) in the southwest, near Karakorum. Kublai is hopelessly backward and will be an easy kill. I managed to stop an earlier and potentially dangerous war between Zara and Kublai as the UN's General Secretary (is there any hope of a diplo win?). I feel like this might be a grindy endgame against Ramesses with the most advanced generation of units (Jets, MA, etc.). But it might not even get that far because Culture seems within reach for him. What do you think?

 

[Lennier]

Nukes are the great equalizer.