Higher difficulty levels force you into 1 playstyle.

[Gliese 581]

I don't agree that higher levels only leave you one way to win. It's true however that you get away with fewer mistakes and straight out whacky strategies. Not all strategies are good just because you win with them, they might in fact have been an obstacle but if your skill or land is good enough they might not matter and you may even come to believe they helped you.
When I look at the top players I'm frequently struck by how many different approaches they can make work even on deity, depending on the circumstances they face. Certainly all victory conditions are just as viable as on lower levels given the right conditions and knowledge of how to best execute them.
Being somewhat single-minded when you move up a level is more a sign of your own lack of diversity, and as a consequence, when faced with a greater than normal challenge, you stick to what you know best, reinforcing the pattern.

I struggle with this myself as I've mostly been winning domination or space victories ever since I started this game with the occasional stumbled-upon diplomacy victory. This is simply because I've not explored other options enough to gain a good grasp of them.

 

[noto2]

About the people who espouse playing MP...I wish it were possible. In theory, a game as rich as Civ would be an amazing multiplayer experience. I wish I could create a nerd paradise, where an entire resort was converted into a Civ multiplayer tournament. People would sit and play, getting a break every hour, there'd be food and refreshments, and the games would last more than a day usually, with episodes of BSG at night and maybe a little pool/bowling.

...in reality, however, playing Civ online is next to impossible. An actual game with all the options and features would take days to complete, and each turn might be a half hour wait. To make it even a bareable length people have to limit the rules to an extreme extent (like cton rules) which makes it not even really Civ.
I like playing online games, like Warcraft 3. It's fun. I wish Civ could be played online, but realistically it just cannot. That's why I care about the AI. The AI has to be really damn good, because it's really the only option.

 

[mirthadir]

Meh, on higher difficulties it is not so much that strategies are limited; I've won every victory condition on immortal multiple times and even have done conquest honestly with mass chain capitulations.

The major difference is you learn to, in the immortal words of Red Five, "Stay on target." On lower the lower difficulties you can afford to delay your wars for a marginal return wonder or you can get circumnavigation just because you can. Going for a culture win? Then you should most likely forget about circumnavigating and you likely want to take a Music beeline over winning the Lib race. Not only do you have to be focused in your decisions, but you also have to adjust your decisions FAR more to the map than vice versa.

Take for instance, religion. You can make a go of early religion. If you have myst on immort you have a good chance of getting Hinduism if you gun for it from turn 0. Of course getting Hinduism to spread is a bit iffy unless the map is set up nicely for it. The classic situation where it works is with Izzy (because of her starting techs) in a coastal cap (with say 3 fish seeking WBs) with two non-religious AIs unlikely to found their own religion (e.g. KK and Mehmed) on an easy trade route. Teching Poly -> Sailing gives you rather good odds of getting good spread even without missionaries. Working a seafood tile (unimproved) also gives you a major leg up in the religion race while building your first WB. Now you have a decent bloc who like you (co-religion) and an optional source of GPrPs, an eventual steady source of cash, a higher happy cap, and a hefty bonus to an EE that doesn't tank your diplomacy. Normally, on immort, I want to either nab a GPr wonder like Oracle or run priest specs to bulb theo early. Then I can flip to Christian, finish the AP, and then flip back. From there one can set up of a diplo vote and win.

Notice we played the map; coast with other AIs on the coastal trading network is a good start for religion. We leveraged the civ; Spain being the only fishing/myst civ which gives them a major leg up on early religion races. And we even leveraged the leader (cheap painless religion flips to game the AP). We did not rush an ai - that requires us to tech outside of the religion path, we did not bet on any wonders, we did not go for a power chopping build to get huge.

On higher difficulties your options narrow quite quickly and you most certainly have to set your sights lower for what advantages you can actually attain.

 

[IronCrown]

...in reality, however, playing Civ online is next to impossible. An actual game with all the options and features would take days to complete, and each turn might be a half hour wait. To make it even a bareable length people have to limit the rules to an extreme extent (like cton rules) which makes it not even really Civ.

Not quite true. I've actually played a lot of civ games online with a couple of (geographically scattered) friends. Normal options (speed, map size/type etc) and medium or fast turn timer. Most of the time it was fun. Though admittedly we never completed a game, we always played only so far and the player with most points at a certain time was declared winner. We often planned to resume a game the next session but we never did. Usually because several people were already beaten or on a losing path and unwilling to resume a game that would be boring for them. So we always started new games.

 

[noto2]

Exactly. 10 chars.

 

[Skallagrimson]

The AI has to be really damn good, because it's really the only option.

Giving the AI gigantic hammer and research bonuses doesn't make them "damn good", it just makes for ridiculously unrealistic scenarios.

I'd rather see the AIs get *smarter* at the higher levels, not automagically imbued with brute super-immunity to all attacks.

 

[Skallagrimson]

The major difference is you learn to, in the immortal words of Red Five, "Stay on target." On lower the lower difficulties you can afford to delay your wars for a marginal return wonder or you can get circumnavigation just because you can. Going for a culture win? Then you should most likely forget about circumnavigating and you likely want to take a Music beeline over winning the Lib race. Not only do you have to be focused in your decisions, but you also have to adjust your decisions FAR more to the map than vice versa.

I think we're merely describing the same thing in two different ways. The absolutely unforgiving nature of the higher levels narrows down options and flexibility. You are channeled, constrained, hogtied to certain actions, and the level of predictability dramatically increases as options become more limited.

As you said, you CANNOT "waste effort" in something like a circumnavigation, so that fun factor is gone. You CANNOT "waste effort" in founding religions. Another fun factor gone. One by one, each element that made civ an enjoyable game at the mid levels of play, get sliced away like in vivisection torture.

Most, if not all, variability, balance, unpredictability, and fun, grinds to a halt.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not quite true. I've actually played a lot of civ games online with a couple of (geographically scattered) friends. Normal options (speed, map size/type etc) and medium or fast turn timer. Most of the time it was fun. Though admittedly we never completed a game, we always played only so far and the player with most points at a certain time was declared winner. We often planned to resume a game the next session but we never did. Usually because several people were already beaten or on a losing path and unwilling to resume a game that would be boring for them. So we always started new games.

When I play with my friend online, the games go 2-4 hours normally on a standard map with standard AI #'s (he's limited to monarch difficulty so that's what we play, if I start wrecking him tech or sizewise...usually size...we'll PA).

Of course, the turn timer is Blazing!!, because I'd probably bash my head in half into the wall if it weren't. I play much faster than the Blazing timer, but I guess it has to be set somewhere. Usually my friend keeps up decently now too, and might even finish first if I'm warring and he isn't!

 

[shyuhe]

I think we're merely describing the same thing in two different ways. The absolutely unforgiving nature of the higher levels narrows down options and flexibility. You are channeled, constrained, hogtied to certain actions, and the level of predictability dramatically increases as options become more limited.

As you said, you CANNOT "waste effort" in something like a circumnavigation, so that fun factor is gone. You CANNOT "waste effort" in founding religions. Another fun factor gone. One by one, each element that made civ an enjoyable game at the mid levels of play, get sliced away like in vivisection torture.

Most, if not all, variability, balance, unpredictability, and fun, grinds to a halt.

That's just wrong. Circumnavigation is incredibly useful and I pursue it if I have the chance. It makes intercontinental invasions a LOT easier. Religions are also useful. It's just that you're unlikely to found Buddhism or Hinduism. You can get Confucianism or Taoism pretty reliably. As to whether you actually want to ADOPT it is another issue though. But you can totally run a religion based economy at the higher levels - look at the ICS SG games.

 

[mirthadir]

I think we're merely describing the same thing in two different ways. The absolutely unforgiving nature of the higher levels narrows down options and flexibility. You are channeled, constrained, hogtied to certain actions, and the level of predictability dramatically increases as options become more limited.

As you said, you CANNOT "waste effort" in something like a circumnavigation, so that fun factor is gone. You CANNOT "waste effort" in founding religions. Another fun factor gone. One by one, each element that made civ an enjoyable game at the mid levels of play, get sliced away like in vivisection torture.

Most, if not all, variability, balance, unpredictability, and fun, grinds to a halt.

Not really, the difference is that on the lower difficulties you can have all that variability within a single game. On the higher difficulties you can play all manner of strats (provided you are willing to mix up map types, leaders, etc.). If you are going for a victory where cirumnavigation will be very useful, like domination or settling the new world, then it can be worth going for circumnavigation. You just cannot do both in the same game.

I mean it is no different than moving up from the easy levels to the mid levels. On settler you can found all religions, build all wonders, win every tech race, fight a war in every era, and still circumnavigate. As you moved up you found that could still build some wonders, but maybe only 3 or so from the ancient era. You could still found religions, but not all of them. You could fight lots of wars, but it was worth it to skip warring during certain eras. Higher difficulties just make you stay focused and learn what you truly need, and what you are doing that is superflous to your exact victory path.

Having already given a case example about when religion (and even early religion) works on Immort let's go with circumnavigation. Nice simple start, you are a lone on an island as Lincoln with two off smaller islands just off shore, so you go for the GLH economy. Settle the islands, ring the coast with cities and now what? You find marble off shore so you tech myst -> poly -> aescthetics (build parth) -> lit (build TGL and Nat epic in a city running two scientists). You now have a good shot of getting one GM and two GSc in short order. Use the GM to bulb MC, research to optics, go find the AI with caravels, and research math. Hope you can trade optics for alphabet/calender and then double bulb astro. From there we flip down the lib path and trade/bulb lib and PP giving us Sci Meth off lib and we then run to fission and rocketry, build manhattan with a slim tech lead, and then nuke/raze the tech leaders before we face inbound nukes. Using circumnavigation and promos from drydocks/civics we can keep our ships within striking range even if they are backward.

Now we leveraged circumnavigation and we neglected religion. Further for the map described above we could just as easily have gone for wonder whoring SSE with the marble wonders, having a decent shot at snagging lib and hence the Taj and for 1/4th of the game in a GA. In the first case you can decide to go for GLH economy in the second you'd likely go for Oracle, take CoL for religion, research Mono for OR, and then run for wonders (Parth, TGL, Sistine, Taj, and perhaps the Colossus, Paya, or SoZ). Either is a viable choice, you just have to stay on target and not mix and match between the two.

 

[PaulisKhan]

I think the premise of the OP is very valid, and I'm increasingly frustrated at how strictly you have to abide by each and every minute detail of "THE ONE WAY TO WIN" at the higher levels, otherwise expect to lose.

And the low to mid levels, religions ARE an option. Wonders ARE an option. Many avenues to gaining an advantage are open, and the possibilities approach the endless when it comes to trying various ways of gaining an advantage. Once you hit Emp (or even Monarch really) the religion option is gone, you're just guaranteed to lose if you go down that path. Wonders nerf down to simply an adjunct to the REX economy (and you start to HOPE you lose the race!) The "builder" trait among humans is nerfed because the game will smack you down mercilessly if you build even so much as a single building that's off-spec.

The options narrow. The games become repetitions of the same old tricks and techniques. All semblance of *strategy* disappears, and you become a robotic agent of somebody else's planning.

With each passing week I'm playing less and less civ because of this. I've gotten to where I can beat Emp, but ONLY if I strictly adhere to very narrow "rules". And the fun that I used to have at the noble/prince levels is gone because I have a greater familiarity with exactly what the AIs are going to do.

Once you get used to playing on Immortal, you'll be able to go play and play a wide range of different strategies on Emperor.
Once you get used to playing on Deity you can go back and play a wide range of different strategies on Immortal.

Once you get really good at Deity then you can play any strategy successfully (HE, SE, CE).


That said, I understand what you're going through, and went through something similar myself, which is why I learned to love the HoF.
In a sense you get to play multiplayer but without the logistical hassles.

You're matching wits with flesh and blood who have the exact same advantages and disadvantages as you.
People complain about HoF'ers without really getting the point of it. It's a way to play the lower difficulties, and still make them challenging.

The entire premise of the HoF is that the AI is beaten before you have even begun the game, it's the other people doing the same thing that you are playing against.

If you're not having fun at Emperor, go back and play some HoF style games at Prince, pick a victory strategy that you like and aim for some top 10 finishes. There are categories for every speed, every difficulty, every map size, every victory condition.
Plenty of categories are open to being improved =)

It made Civ fun again for me. Maybe it can do the same for you.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Ya know I never really thought of HOF in that way before, but that makes sense and sounds fun. Oh and BTW Paulis, congrats on the high score on the front page.

 

[DaveMcW]

Using Mapfinder is like playing 1 difficulty level lower.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Using Mapfinder is like playing 1 difficulty level lower.

Yes, but competing against the likes of STW and Lexad and Dynamic and Jesusin and Ironhead and Wastin and so many other great players is like playing 2 difficulty levels higher, so I'd say it more than balances out ;P

Repeat after me:
It's not about beating the AI
It's not about beating the AI


;P


ps. Thanks Johnny, take it from a guy on the verge of uninstalling because he could no longer get his friends interested in the game, HoF adds an entirely new dimension that is not only fun, but can teach you a handy trick or two to use in regular games.

pps. I find that there are too many variables in what makes a good start for mapfinder to be all that useful, so I just search through manually until I see something I can work with. Most of my HoF games involve me going walkabout for a turn or two and settling late.

 

[noto2]

mapfinder?

 

[Dirk1302]

I think we're merely describing the same thing in two different ways. The absolutely unforgiving nature of the higher levels narrows down options and flexibility. You are channeled, constrained, hogtied to certain actions, and the level of predictability dramatically increases as options become more limited.

As you said, you CANNOT "waste effort" in something like a circumnavigation, so that fun factor is gone. You CANNOT "waste effort" in founding religions. Another fun factor gone. One by one, each element that made civ an enjoyable game at the mid levels of play, get sliced away like in vivisection torture.

Most, if not all, variability, balance, unpredictability, and fun, grinds to a halt.

I don't agree with you, also i don't think you're describing the same thing as Mirthadir. Look at Usun or Rusten games and see how original the game can be on deity. Look at the last DC game where the game could be won pre 1 AD by greedy rexing. I beelined music btw in that game, hardly a usual action but correct given the situation i was in.

It's not that you're restricted in options, it's more that you have to take the right option at the right time looking at all the aspects of the map. You think it's fun to have the choice between going for circumnavigation and founding islam on emperor, if i look at that same map i yawn think that both options win, choose a third that wins faster and go on to do something more challenging.

 

[ppciv4]

yes, I see only one possible way to go.

but sometimes I enjoy a straight-to-the-end defeat.

 

[EmperorFool]

mapfinder?

It's part of the HoF mod that allows you to set up rules for what your desired starting location contains--based only on what's visible by your two starting units. You set up sets of rules in a separate Windows program and then kick off MapFinder after starting a game using whatever map/level/civ/option settings you like.

MF will continuously generate maps, checking them against the rules you defined. If a starting location matches any of the rule sets you defined, it takes a screenshot and saves the game. It does this until it reaches the # of total runs or matching starts or you stop it manually.

You go back to the MF program and get a list of all the matching starts. It has a large configurable table that shows whatever details you want about those starts, and selecting one shows all the details and the screenshot.

You pick the start you want and go from there.

For example:

Desert: 0
Forests: 4 - 10
Food Resources: 2 - 3
Gems: 1 - 999
River: 3 - 999
​

 

[Gliese 581]

It's part of the HoF mod that allows you to set up rules for what your desired starting location contains--based only on what's visible by your two starting units. You set up sets of rules in a separate Windows program and then kick off MapFinder after starting a game using whatever map/level/civ/option settings you like.

MF will continuously generate maps, checking them against the rules you defined. If a starting location matches any of the rule sets you defined, it takes a screenshot and saves the game. It does this until it reaches the # of total runs or matching starts or you stop it manually.

You go back to the MF program and get a list of all the matching starts. It has a large configurable table that shows whatever details you want about those starts, and selecting one shows all the details and the screenshot.

You pick the start you want and go from there.

For example:

Desert: 0
Forests: 4 - 10
Food Resources: 2 - 3
Gems: 1 - 999
River: 3 - 999
​

I suppose it would take a while to get all riverside with 14 gems, some corn and a few hills?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I suppose it would take a while to get all riverside with 14 gems, some corn and a few hills?

It's probably capped so that you can't. IIRC you're not getting more than 3 gems in cap BFC any time this year.