Hippodrome and Byzantine Iconoclasm

[bonafide11]

I've noticed that the Byzantine Hippodrome, which replaces the theatre, does not provide artist specialists like the standard theatre.

I can think of two possible explanations for why the Hippodrome would not allow artists.

The first reason: a hippodrome, after all, is not a theatre; it is typically an arena for horse races and chariot races. So the hippodrome then requires no artists to perform.

The second reason: Byzantine history is full of iconoclasm. The Byzantine Empire experienced several periods where much of its art was destroyed by iconoclasts. I don't want to go into too much detail on this, but read this if you want to learn more about Byzantine iconoclasm. To me, this is the more interesting explanation for why the Byzantine Hippodrome does not provide artist specialists. There can't be artist specialists if art is forbidden by the religious and political authorities. So it makes perfect sense for the Byzantines not to have the artist specialists in the hippodrome.

As for game play, it makes little difference to me whether the theatre has the artist specialists or not because I rarely work artists, and if I really wanted to, I could run caste system and have unlimited artists. Since Justinian is Spiritual, switching to caste system is painless. But I find it fascinating that Firaxis did not provide the hippodrome with artist specialists.

I am curious what other people think about this. Does the hippodrome not have artist specialists because it is not an artistic theatre, or because of the Byzantine history of iconoclasm? Or both?

 

[Optimizer]

It might be a mistake - the Hippodrome might have been thought as a replacement of the Colosseum.

 

[bonafide11]

No, I am fairly sure it's not a mistake.

 

[Thedrin]

Bonafide11:
I am curious what other people think about this. Does the hippodrome not have artist specialists because it is not an artistic theatre, or because of the Byzantine history of iconoclasm? Or both?

Or neither. It might simply be because the Hippodrome already recieves lots of bonuses over the standard theatre and it was decided to remove some of the normal theatre bonuses.

 

[Will9]

The Hippodrome provides plenty of benifets but I still think you should atleast be able to get 1 artist from a Hippodrome.

 

[bonafide11]

So am I the only one who thinks that it is not a coincidence that the Byzantine hippodrome is not allowed to have artist specialists? So it is mere coincidence the Byzantines are famous for repressing art, and their UB does not provide the standard artists? Remember the Byzantine Empire existed during the medieval ages, which is also known as the Dark Ages. The reason it is referred to as the dark ages is because of the lack of culture. Very few writers, or artists of any sort, achieved fame during this period. I do not think Firaxis coincidentally made the Byzantine Empire's UB lack artist specialists.

 

[SkippyT]

Very good eye, you have.

And yes, you're probably right.

 

[Will9]

The Dark Ages and the Middle Ages are 2 different eras (Dark Ages ends at 1000 AD or 1066 AD (last Viking invasion) depending on which historian you ask and the Middle ages then begin) The Byzantines were pretty much immune to Dark Ages and acted as a preserver of knowledge and art. The Byzantines had there own Dark Ages which was which began with the fall to the crusaders.

 

[bonafide11]

Re: "Existed during the medieval ages, also known as the dark ages..."

Oops, my mistake, I should have read what I wrote! It didn't make any sense. The Byzantines existed during the Dark Ages and lasted into the Middle Ages. But the point remains the Byzantine Empire often (but not always) prohibited artwork during their existence, so I think we can assume that has something to do with them not having the artist specialists.

 

[narmox]

How do you explain that the the Hippodrome provides 2 happy faces per 10% culture rate (as opposed to the theatre's 1) - or 1 per 5% as the 'pedia says. Do you seperate culture and art?

Narmox.

 

[Bjorn190]

If you play byzantine, most likely you're a total warmonger beelining for cataphracts, so you wont really use a citizen that could be working a mine as an artist If you want artist, can always go caste system, can make your entire population artists then u kno.. Til they starve

 

[Hawe Hawe]

I won my first war oriented BTS-game yesterday with the Byzantines. Allthough Byzantine history is not so famous for its wars but more for its cultural merits you have to play them the exact opposite in the game and the hippodrome is a reason for this:
A cultural victory is very difficult, because the hippodrome lacks the important possibility for Artist-specialist. As the above poster says, caste system could be a solution, but it is not ideal for cultural victories. In the beginning you want slavery, later emancipation. So in my opinion cultural is not the way to go with Justinian.
But spiritual/imperialistic plus UU and UB is ideal for warmongering: with the hippodrome you won't have war weariness problems at 10% culture, at 20% you'll have "We love the King/president/dictator-days" in most cities. Not to mention the additional +1 happy from horses, i assume you will look for horses immediately playing the Byzantines.
The Kataphrakt is good but not as game breaking as i feared. Very strong in the field but not very cost efficient when conquering cities.
My strategy with imperialistic civs is to get the Great Wall and then fight defensive wars in your own cultural area: You have 100% great generals from imperialistic +200% from the Wall: You'll get your first three Generals in no time. One for MedicIII, two settled in your future heroic epic city (exploiting the military academy bug is too much!) and then pump out your well promoted Kataphrakts and conquer.
As special gift i was also able to build the pyramids. I didn't really try, but i had stone, there were no industrial civs around and the AIs rushed every other wonder but not the pyramids. With pyramids the war mongerning benefits of spiritual become huge: regular switches from Theocracy/Police state to representation/organized religion make a good balance from war to building phases.

 

[Molon Labe]

Interesting theory, but there is a flaw. Iconoclasm doesn't mean that there is an opposition to all art or artists. The Byzantines did have some pretty severe periods of iconoclasm where a great deal of art was wiped from the face of the earth. But this was religious art. Their opposition was based on the idea that the divine can't be portrayed. Basically a painting of the Madonna and Child would be verboten, but a Bob Ross landscape of happy little trees would be fine.

Similarly, Islam has a tradition of iconoclasm where portrayals of living beings are forbidden. Yet there is no shortage of Islamic art, it merely takes a different form. The intricate geometrical shapes and distinctive architecture is evidence of that.

And don't forget, there is still a fair amount of Byzantine art still around that is beautiful to see. A trip to the National Gallery in London, and many other museums around the world, will enable you to see some. It's a shame to think about all of the art that was destroyed, because undoubtedly much of it had to be amazing.

 

[(Alexandros)]

Molon Labe (btw, nice nickname!) is right. Religious art was prohibited for a time, because the iconoclasts thought that many people were worshipping the icons themselves, instead of the saints they depicted, something like idolatry. This was a big no-no in the hardline christian theocratic regime that was Byzantium.

As for the reason the Hippodrome does not provide any artists, in my opinion, there is no way the Firaxians could have iconoclasm in mind. Way too deep thinking.

Off topic a bit: The phrases that the Byzantine units are speaking are for the most part attrociously pronounced. They do speak medieval Greek, like they're supposed to, but it's like they hired someone who doesn't know the language to read some phrases written in latin alphabet, disregarding each and every pronounciation rule there is.

 

[bonafide11]

Yes, I understand the Byzantines still produced some art. One look at the Hagia Sophia will tell you that. But I still think there is something to the lack of artist specialists for the hippodrome. It may be a reference to their phases of iconoclasm, but it may also just be a coincidence. It could be a case of whether art imitates life or life imitates art.

Narmox: No, I don't necessarily separate culture from art, but I am saying they don't have artist specialists, not that they don't have any culture. The two happiness bonus from 10% suggests they need less culture or art than their rivals to satisfy their citizens.

 

[Innawerkz]

If you are for historical accuracy, once per game we should be permitted to activate a mass slaughter of all rebellious & dissenting population in the Byzantine civ - a la 'Nika Revolts'.

Be an interesting option. Kind of a mass whipping that sheds your empire of all faces with no benefit except to have them gone and restore order temporarily. Could be used while not using the 'Slavery' civic.

 

[axident]

If you play byzantine, most likely you're a total warmonger beelining for cataphracts, so you wont really use a citizen that could be working a mine as an artist If you want artist, can always go caste system, can make your entire population artists then u kno.. Til they starve

Poor, starving artists?

 

[Dnomal]

Iconoclasm did indeed happen twice in the history of Byzantium, that's true.

And for literally decades religous art was destroyed in a (suspected Islamic influenced idea).

HOWEVER

The Byzantine empire lasted for a thousand years, in which they produced more (mainly religous) artwork than any of their contemporaries (and perhaps some modern nations). The Iconocolasm movements were deeply unpopular at the time, and were reversed as soon as the Emperor who supported it was dead.

btw - It is a shame that Byzantium in BTS is a warmonger civ, but under Justinian they did go something of a conquering spree.

A similar event occured in Ancient Egypt, in which one Pharoah decided to do away with the old gods, and start a new monotheistic faith, worshiping the Arten(the sun), leaving the old gods, starting a new city and trying to wipe out polytheism. However when he died everything was undone, the Arten was reduced to a minor deity, the old gods restored and the entire Arten faith covered uo by the Pharoah's sucessor (tutankhamun).

Now you could say
"Egypt was monotheistic"

And it'd be true, but for most of the time of Egypt it wouldn't be true.

The Hippodrome doesn't allow for artist specialists because it's a hippodrome, a large race track for little more than entertainment. Unlike a theater no artwork, or great artworkers are influenced or created there.

 

[Kushluk]

I doubt fraxis is smart enough to know about Iconoclasm. I'd sooner have had another Emperor than Justinian BTW. I like Alexius Comnenus much better, and he goes perfectly with the Spy theme of this expansion. Futhermore he is truly and fully "Byzantine", not just a surviving Greek-Roman.

 

[bonafide11]

I also like Alexious as a leader choice for the Byzantines, but Justinian works well too since the Byzantines expanded their borders and reclaimed much of the Western Roman Empire under Justinian.

Also, I disagree, I think Firaxis is smarter than you are willing to admit. Of course, they're game programmers, not historians, but I am pretty sure they rely on reliable and actual historians for their game content.