History (aka Steph's mod 3)

[King Coltrane]

I think without pop. costs makes it more difficult for the player. if there are pop. costs, initially the AI may be tough, but it doesnt take long to outproduce them and dominate. with the new way I had a really tough game as Hellas. I had a far flung empire of only 7 cities (all connected by roads) and was cranking out spartan heavy swordsmen, but could never seem to break through the German lines, beyond the taking of one city. Since my cities were so far flung it was hard to muster a sufficient force, meaning Germany was concentrated and producing as many units as I was so i had to stay on the defensive for the most part. then i had to go to sleep because it was 3AM last night

Steph, i highly recommend a small change: make the base hitpoints higher. I changed conscript to 3, regular to 4, veteran to 6, and elite to 8. I know this may be more than you would want but the point remains: I dont care how high the stats for a unit are; if they only have 2 hp, they will never win. also, given that so many units have an hp malus, it makes sense to increase the base for all units to compensate. it makes combat much fairer in my opinion.

also, just for fun I made the spartan hoplite have 6/7/1 -1 hp and the athenian one 5/7/1 -0 hp, just to add to the variety.

but yes, we need some wonders. FAST! theres only so much i can build in my cities before i want some TRUE glory! I think these should go in the next patch and would be happy to suggest some bronze age and iron age wonders for you to include

but otherwise its a blast! challenging yet fun! keep up the great work!

 

[Steph]

Thanks for the praise.

You really think pop cost make it easier for the AI?

In my tests, the AI has only 1-3 pop in his cities, so it means they have a very low yield. Not enough food to grow fast to compensate the building of units, not enougn shields to quickly build them, and not enough gold to maintain them.

How did you manage to get outproduced by the Germans ?

What was your difficulty level?

Initially, I had more HP, something along your lines. But then I fear the swordsmen would be too strong.

The change for the hoplite could be a good idea.

And regarding wonders and buildings... I have someone who should help with them, that's not the part I like the most to do.

I'm more into units.

 

[Steph]

Tech chooser large pcx for scholastic crashed me! it was when I looked for religous (sp) orders. I know it seems strange but maybe a result of conquests disc and windows pro 2000 xt.?!?

I found why. That's an interesting bug... I have Religious orders twice in the civpedia.

Once with a renamed file "religious order.pcx", one with the olde name "scholasticism". I forget to deleted the second entry.

If you look at religious order --> works.
Then click on a monk --> works
Click on the small tech icon for religious order --> crash

It seems the game is not always using the same icons, depending if it displays it for the first time or not

 

[King Coltrane]

I was actually saying that I thought having a pop. requirement made it HARDER for the AI and easier for the player. Basically what you said earlier, I agree with.

And I didnt get totally outproduced by the germans... we were more or less on par, but since it took 3 turns to get my units to the front and it took them 0 they were able to outmaneuver me, so to speak.

also, I LOVE these tough barbs! it adds a lot to the game. dont weaken them anymore!

 

[JSnider]

restarted with update and gotta say the game plays much better (opinion), still challenging but AI are not being eaten alive by the Barbs, so where they are at now seems to work well. So like the changes and the AIs are growing whereas before got to a certain level and stopped to concentrate on fighting the Barbs. Tech advances seem to be going faster then before (of course had one hut give me Bronze Age and thus save me 18 turns).

 

[King Coltrane]

more comments:

as much as i like the HUGE amount of techs, you might want to cut some down. granted, im sure there will be more stuff to fill them in sooner or later, but even still, there are a lot that may not be necessary...

bombard stuff: right now archers, javelineers , and catapults are useless. their bombard strength is FAR too low. when you have a peltast with a bombard of 3 against a spearman with a strength of 5, its not gonna work. even catapults with a strength of 8 (or 10) arent strong enough since by that time units can have 6,7,8,9 points of defense and wont be touched behind their ramparts, and hill forts, etc. i think you need to raise these values a lot.

archers should have at the lowest stats 1.1.1 4(str.)1(range)2(RoF). against the most basic spearmen (strength 3) they should be somewhat effective, but not too much. they will help in a stack but wont dominate.

Javelineers should be something like 3.3.1 6(str.)1(range)1(RoF) and all terrain as roads. they will pack a punch but only be able to get one hp from their bombard, to weaken the enemy. their 3.3.1 normal stats would give them a little flexibility so they can attack or defend if needed. the all terrain as roads is good cause they can be used for flanking (so to speak), as they historically were. at least the greek-influenced civ's peltasts should have all terrain as roads.

catapults should have a base of 0.0.1, 12(14?)(strength).2(range).2(RoF) but should be more expensive. they should be of more use as ranged artillery, which will both expose them to cavalry and peltast attacks and aid in sieges, if not make them completely necessary.

I think cavalry archers are actually ok the way they are. maybe increase their bombard strength by 1 or 2, but they work really well in my opinion. good job there!

All of these stats should increase with era and unit so that later archers can contend with later cavalry and not be totally useless.

I like that by the middle ages the defenses of most units are high enough that mass rushes of macedonian phalanxes and spartan swordsmen arent viable. they will just get thrashed to bits. but for this to work the artillery needs to be beefed up. they are needed to break through cities defenses and should be able to, though currently they aren't.

Last thing: increase ship movement. 3 is so small. and it never increases! thats no fun! I would think a trireme could outperform a basic boat...

 

[Steph]

as much as i like the HUGE amount of techs, you might want to cut some down. granted, im sure there will be more stuff to fill them in sooner or later, but even still, there are a lot that may not be necessary...

The tech serve several purpose: give buildings, wonders (will be expanded), and also control the flow of the game and give more flavour. I agree that the tech tree could be reworked a little, but I won't scrap half of the techs.

bombard stuff: right now archers, javelineers , and catapults are useless. their bombard strength is FAR too low. when you have a peltast with a bombard of 3 against a spearman with a strength of 5, its not gonna work. even catapults with a strength of 8 (or 10) arent strong enough since by that time units can have 6,7,8,9 points of defense and wont be touched behind their ramparts, and hill forts, etc. i think you need to raise these values a lot.

Thanks for feedback, I may raise them a little.

archers should have at the lowest stats 1.1.1 4(str.)1(range)2(RoF). against the most basic spearmen (strength 3) they should be somewhat effective, but not too much. they will help in a stack but wont dominate.

I think the bombardment should not exceed the defense, but be equivalent.

Javelineers should be something like 3.3.1 6(str.)1(range)1(RoF) and all terrain as roads. they will pack a punch but only be able to get one hp from their bombard, to weaken the enemy. their 3.3.1 normal stats would give them a little flexibility so they can attack or defend if needed. the all terrain as roads is good cause they can be used for flanking (so to speak), as they historically were. at least the greek-influenced civ's peltasts should have all terrain as roads.

All terrain as road I won't do. It would mean that the javelineer can make 3 tiles while cavalry can make only 2 or one! For flanking, use the cavalry.

catapults should have a base of 0.0.1, 12(14?)(strength).2(range).2(RoF) but should be more expensive. they should be of more use as ranged artillery, which will both expose them to cavalry and peltast attacks and aid in sieges, if not make them completely necessary.

Range 2 is too much. Don't forget this is only the first era of the game. And it should be consistent with the scale of the game. I could increase the strength.

I think cavalry archers are actually ok the way they are. maybe increase their bombard strength by 1 or 2, but they work really well in my opinion. good job there!

Thanks!

All of these stats should increase with era and unit so that later archers can contend with later cavalry and not be totally useless.

I like that by the middle ages the defenses of most units are high enough that mass rushes of macedonian phalanxes and spartan swordsmen arent viable. they will just get thrashed to bits. but for this to work the artillery needs to be beefed up. they are needed to break through cities defenses and should be able to, though currently they aren't.

I will increase their strength.

Last thing: increase ship movement. 3 is so small. and it never increases! thats no fun! I would think a trireme could outperform a basic boat...

Again, I need to keep some room for the next eras, where a nuclear powered aircraft carrier needs to be a little faster than a galley .
I could increase the speed to 4, but probably not more.

 

[JSnider]

Ok .. continuing on into the game. Looks like the cost of tech after the Late Bronze Age are relatively cheap. I start getting an advance every 2-3 turns now ... have approximately 25+ cities though. In effect by 192 BC I have gotten past "BARB INVASION". If this is what intended then OK, but I thought would be in the AD for that one. I'd almost think that tripling the value of Early/Late Iron and Barb Invasion might be better ... of course once have 16+ civs this may be to high. Just impression now.
Also Iron and Horses seem very rare, on Huge map only 9 of each on the map. No Iron on 2 major Isles mine and one with 2 other AIs.
Generic Units not turned on, is this intentional ... can't build them and in editor not marked buildable by any civ. Noted also that in some cases the A/D values of some of the generics are higher then civ specific ones ... what you planned?

Again, much more fun and balanced. Able to kill barb units, usually need 2 or 3 to one to do it but can succeed now.

 

[Moosezilla]

I got Iron! I went to look it up. Crash...game exits.

 

[Steph]

Ok .. continuing on into the game. Looks like the cost of tech after the Late Bronze Age are relatively cheap. I start getting an advance every 2-3 turns now ... have approximately 25+ cities though. In effect by 192 BC I have gotten past "BARB INVASION". If this is what intended then OK, but I thought would be in the AD for that one. I'd almost think that tripling the value of Early/Late Iron and Barb Invasion might be better ... of course once have 16+ civs this may be to high. Just impression now.

The goal would be to have Late iron age around -200 BC, and Barbarian invasion around 200-300 AD.

For tester, I'd be interested by a report on when you reach the different "age", and what is your average time to discover a tech at these age. So I can see if I need to increase the cost of more advanced techs.

Also Iron and Horses seem very rare, on Huge map only 9 of each on the map. No Iron on 2 major Isles mine and one with 2 other AIs.

I have notice that to, I'll try to change some settings.

Generic Units not turned on, is this intentional ... can't build them and in editor not marked buildable by any civ. Noted also that in some cases the A/D values of some of the generics are higher then civ specific ones ... what you planned?

The generic units are here only to help me add new civilizaiton. I'm using the generic units and I copy them with new editor.
Once all the civs bill be added, I'll probably delete the generic units.

 

[georgestow]

Overseas expansions is hard because of my settler not wanting to load into the early boats. Just a pooint I felt needed making, because this makes Archipeligo(?) games rather hard. And even continent games if you get stuck on a small island.

 

[Moosezilla]

What he said, and yes ships do not have load feature?!? It wouldn't matter as am playing pangaea but without ROP I may have to plow my way through Russians to get to Iberia. BTW 472BC Barb invasion complete in two turns.

 

[Steph]

Overseas expansion is supposed to happen in the second era, where ships can load settlers. My goal is to prevent colonization of American by Europe in 300 BC.

All the ships can transport unit, but initially only foot units. The first ship that can carry none foot unit is the cog.

And the settlers are not considered foot unit for the purpose of limiting early expansion.

In the future, I want to change it a little, and give the possibility to some civilization to have settlers that could settle oversea at some time. Like give to Scandinavia a "viking settlers", with the same graphics as the norse settlers, but it could load the scandinavian ships, when the time is right.

Greek settlers could be allowed to load in ships in the early game, but the Byzantine settlers could not (well, they could load in the big ships).

If you really want to expand sooner, you could always build a navy, enough soldiers, and capture a city, then start your expansion from here.

Or I could allow civ to build the Nomad Tribe, for a large shield cost. They could be allowed to load.

But I'm not sure if the AI can manage that.

Another possibility would be to make settlers foot unit, so they can load in early transport, and just use the fact the initial units cannot cross ocean to limit the expansion.

So what do you think is the best:

1) All settlers become foot unit, and can load any ship, but as the early ships can't cross ocean, a civ will be able to settle an archipelago, but not another continent far away.

2) The settlers remain as they are, but the nomad tribe is buidable by all, for one pop cost, can load into ships, but is very expansive. Will the AI use it correctly?

3) I introduce more flavour settlers, that are allowed to board ship, and available in an era when their civilization did expand oversea. More historical, more flavour, nice for a real world map, but may be difficult for random map.

 

[Steph]

Speaking of real world map....

I wonder if someone would be interested to help with the mod.

The idea would be to keep the rules as they are, but to create real world map scenario based on it.

Like Europe in 2000 BC, with only starting location, or Europe in 500 AD, with pre place cities, etc.

Something like what they did with MEM

 

[Moosezilla]

To tell the truth when BI era was over I found I could build "ship". To me this works fine. For Archipelago I'm not so sure. Polynesian outriggers and Egyptian papyrus boats are examples of early ocean going....

 

[King Coltrane]

ill try to do a few maps later today. also i think flavor settlers is best. i love the idea of greek colonization of spain and the black sea. works for me! on the other hand i think you'll need a few more civs for this to work well, namely turkey + iraq + egypt (or the hittites and babylon/assyria and ancient Egypt)

 

[Steph]

When the unit lines will be completed by Sandris, I will add Egypt, Turkey, Persia, India and Japan.

Should be added first (as I have the units I need): China, Maghreb, Arabia and Africa.

Added I don't know when: America, Mexico, Andes.

 

[georgestow]

I think option 1 is the best, because I don't know how the AI would handle 2 and 3 would only really work on a real-world map or one that has been set up to be very real-world esque.

 

[JSnider]

To answer your question on tech gotten: late iron a little after 400BC, and Barb Invasion around 200 BC ... just into the AD period and got Early Middle Ages.

As to settlers what I also did to restrict them was via the ship not being able to enter ocean, i.e. your option (1). Other option I tried was only have the transportable settler produced by a building, i.e. Small Wonder (be it the Palace or similar item .. tended to go with the Palace as could not get all the AIs to build other Small wonders all the time). This limits how many get over time, still one via this might be to many unless implement option (1) and leave your normal settlers as is.

 

[Moosezilla]

Forgot and looked up Troubadour! oops 232-192 EARLY MIDDLE AGES... Wiped out 'in the way' Russians... had to find pcx large and copy Troubadour.ini and rename it "_Troubadour.ini"...