History questions not worth their own thread II

[Lord Baal]

Economics. Lock out competitors and support the Palestinian olive grower industry.

I like your ingenuity, but the explanation doesn't fly. Most of the best olive-growing territory in Palestine had been taken over by Roman veterans by this point.

 

[Masada]

Pigs need carbohydrates, since they don't get it from grass like cows and sheeps and there isn't a good source of carbohydrates in a desert they need to be bought grains.

Still doesn't fly. Pigs seem to do fine in Central Australia. And grain isn't the only source of protein by any measure.

 

[Cynovolans]

Still doesn't fly. Pigs seem to do fine in Central Australia. And grain isn't the only source of protein by any measure.

Pigs in Australia are mostly concentrated in Queensland, and there huge agriculture pests. And carbohydrates aren't proteins, the best sources of carbohydrates are fruits and grains.

 

[bombshoo]

Why are Western-style officer uniforms so universally used? Though western-style dress is dominant all over the world, the leaders in many countries sometimes wear more traditional dress clothes (Many Arab and African countries for instance). Despite this, even in these places, it's always still the standard Western style military uniforms for officers (big hats, lots of patches and badges, big shoulder pads etc). Has any country in recent times ever reintroduced more traditional garb for the dress versions of their military uniforms?

 

[say1988]

I would guess because during the 18th and 19th centuries the officers in most of those countries were western, and the post independence militaries continue the tradition of the colonial forces.

 

[Masada]

Pigs in Australia are mostly concentrated in Queensland, and there huge agriculture pests.

Er, what?

And carbohydrates aren't proteins, the best sources of carbohydrates are fruits and grains.

The 'best' being what?

 

[Cynovolans]

Er, what?

Central Australia is a region in the Northern Territories isn't it? According to this map feral prigs aren't doing that good in central australia.

The 'best' being what?

High in carbohydrates. Simple and complex carbohydrates.

 

[Masada]

Spoiler :

Just outside sunny Longreach, Queensland.

Spoiler :

Yet more beautiful Longreach, Queensland.

Central Australia is a region in the Northern Territories isn't it?

Er, nice wiki and no.

According to this map feral prigs aren't doing that good in central australia.

You have no idea what I'm talking about.

High in carbohydrates. Simple and complex carbohydrates.

And the best for cattle being?

 

[Agent327]

Why are Western-style officer uniforms so universally used? Though western-style dress is dominant all over the world, the leaders in many countries sometimes wear more traditional dress clothes (Many Arab and African countries for instance). Despite this, even in these places, it's always still the standard Western style military uniforms for officers (big hats, lots of patches and badges, big shoulder pads etc). Has any country in recent times ever reintroduced more traditional garb for the dress versions of their military uniforms?

(Short answer: ) The ´modern´ military is basically a Western invention and was introduced in most countries by Western military.

 

[vogtmurr]

Maybe. Obviously when it comes to animal husbandry I'm a pretty ignorant guy. Most things really, but especially animal husbandry.

I resemble that comment
but I think you are pulling my leg. Do sheep have difficulties in Australia ?

Case in point; the Jewish ban on the use of olive oil that came from anywhere other than Palestine during the Roman rule there. What possible reasonable explanation could there be for that? Especially considering the fact that no such ban exists now, and as early as the fifth century rabbis couldn't work out the reason for this prohibition.

But that was not as ancient and deep seated as the widespread aversion to pork in many cultures.
I would suspect the reasons were economic and nationalistic, not religous, hence the rabbis had no dogma to explain it. Ancient Judea wasn't very secular so national interests would be backed up by religious authority. But you say Romans owned the olive production, so what is your theory then ?

Still doesn't fly. Pigs seem to do fine in Central Australia. And grain isn't the only source of protein by any measure.

Spoiler :

Just outside sunny Longreach, Queensland.

Spoiler :

Yet more beautiful Longreach, Queensland.

?

Its immaterial to the original question of why pork is taboo, but what I know is for thousands of years sheep have been herded over arid hills, traveling great distances with the seasons. middle east, central asia, sahel, now patagonia and australia. The problem is overgrazing has led to desertification in some of these regions. Yes some good cattle breeds were known to Serengeti, Fulani, Pakistani pastoralists, though I wonder about water loss in the larger animals. I can't see pigs making the journey.


Personally I find it hard to believe that a readily available food source, if it was well adapted, would be taboo on the whim of a self-styled prophet. I suspect some peoples availed themselves of pork in the past and got sick, this stayed in the collective memory. Myself I'll eat anything, but I haven't tried locusts and wild honey.

 

[Masada]

Its immaterial to the original question of why pork is taboo

Er, no its not.

but what I know is for thousands of years sheep have been herded over arid hills, traveling great distances with the seasons. middle east, central asia, sahel, now patagonia and australia.

Simple rule of thumb in Australian agriculture. If there's non-milking cattle present, the land can't support anything else. There's not an iota of grain grown there. Certainly, no vegetables. Few trees. Absolutely nothing except eating cattle. And it supports pigs just fine. Big pigs too. The contention that pigs need grain is ridiculous.

The problem is overgrazing has led to desertification in some of these regions. Yes some good cattle breeds were known to Serengeti, Fulani, Pakistani pastoralists, though I wonder about water loss in the larger animals.

Sheep don't take much north of the Goyder Line in South Australia. Cows can go further north than that. While breeds like Brahmans can live in the desert proper.

I can't see pigs making the journey.

Pigs do much better than sheep and goats.

 

[Dragonlord]

Interesting. 2 pages of discussion on why pigs were made taboo, and no one mentions trichinosis???
Pigs (as omnivores) are very prone to trichinosis infection unless proper precautions are taken - unlike pure herbivores like cattle or sheep. Humans can then get infected by eating undercooked pork - leading to nice symptoms like paralysis or even death.

Since no one in antiquity had a clue what was causing this, only the observation that it came after eating pigs' meat, the general ban on pork seems only logical.

 

[Masada]

Pigs (as omnivores) are very prone to trichinosis infection unless proper precautions are taken - unlike pure herbivores like cattle or sheep. Humans can then get infected by eating undercooked pork - leading to nice symptoms like paralysis or even death.

Undercooked beef has tapeworms. Goats, Sheep and Cattle all transmit brucellosis and anthrax. Of those (excluding tapeworms) trichinosis is the least of your worries.

 

[Lord Baal]

Central Australia is a region in the Northern Territories isn't it?

Um, no? There are no Northern Territories in Australia. Just the Northern Territory. To be fair, there were once two territories comprising what is now the single Northern Territory; Northern Australia and Central Australia (likely what you're thinking of). But they haven't existed as separate entities for nearly a century now.

I resemble that comment
but I think you are pulling my leg. Do sheep have difficulties in Australia ?

Yes, very much so. They're a staple of the economy because most people in Australia live below the Goyder Line. But the majority of the land in Australia is above said line, so sheep don't really have it nearly as good here as people think.

But that was not as ancient and deep seated as the widespread aversion to pork in many cultures.
I would suspect the reasons were economic and nationalistic, not religous, hence the rabbis had no dogma to explain it. Ancient Judea wasn't very secular so national interests would be backed up by religious authority. But you say Romans owned the olive production, so what is your theory then ?

I don't really have a theory to explain it. The prohibition against olive oil wasn't enacted until after Judea became a Roman protectorate. While the olive fields may have been under the control of locals at first, from what I understand the Herodians confiscated most of them because they supported the rebels against Roman rule. Originally the fields were given to loyalists, then later to Roman veterans under Titus. So their economic benefits went to the Herodians and later Romans, not the priesthood. Meaning I don't understand why the rabbis would support it without some religious reasoning, of which none survived even to the fifth century CE.

Personally I find it hard to believe that a readily available food source, if it was well adapted, would be taboo on the whim of a self-styled prophet. I suspect some peoples availed themselves of pork in the past and got sick, this stayed in the collective memory. Myself I'll eat anything, but I haven't tried locusts and wild honey.

I suspect the same thing in this particular case, but not all religious injunctions make a lick of sense. The aforementioned olive oil one being a prime example. Even Josephus didn't know what it was about, and it seems to have begun in his lifetime. Even Parthian Jews were supposed to abide by this injunction, which is odd since Parthia and Rome were often at war, making trade between Palestine and Babylon difficult.

Simple rule of thumb in Australian agriculture. If there's non-milking cattle present, the land can't support anything else. There's not an iota of grain grown there. Certainly, no vegetables. Few trees. Absolutely nothing except eating cattle. And it supports pigs just fine. Big pigs too. The contention that pigs need grain is ridiculous.

Frighteningly big pigs. I've seen them stand up to angry kangaroos back in QLD.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Why are Western-style officer uniforms so universally used?

Because they look sharp.

Has any country in recent times ever reintroduced more traditional garb for the dress versions of their military uniforms?

The Bolsheviks tried something like this during the Russian Civil War. That's where these hats come from:

Spoiler :

They were meant to suggest a Mongoloid look.

 

[Karalysia]

I want that hat.

 

[Cynovolans]

And the best for cattle being?

If you don't know the difference between ruminants and pigs then we shouldn't be having this discussion.

And if you'd like to know why pigs are so successful in Australia, then blame these two plants, nuts from this can give enough protein for pigs to survive, and the roots of this plant are an adequate source of carbohydrates.

 

[vogtmurr]

Sheep don't take much north of the Goyder Line in South Australia. Cows can go further north than that. While breeds like Brahmans can live in the desert proper.

Having a nice set of artesian wells can make raising cattle in the middle of any desert possible. It's not the same as making a round trip of 500-1000 km annually over barren hills. I would like to see the relative numbers of cattle and sheep in this region, but my real 'beef' is with the pigs.

Pigs do much better than sheep and goats.

I will definitely need to see some compelling evidence before I can believe this.

 

[Masada]

If you don't know the difference between ruminants and pigs then we shouldn't be having this discussion.

If you don't understand the optimum feed-load for cattle then we shouldn't be having this conversation. (Hint: it isn't grass).

And if you'd like to know why pigs are so successful in Australia, then blame these two plants, nuts from this can give enough protein for pigs to survive, and the roots of this plant are an adequate source of carbohydrates.

Please provide a citation for that claim. And if its true: do pigs really need grain?

Having a nice set of artesian wells can make raising cattle in the middle of any desert possible.

It was possible before that with careful husbandry. Simply put beef cattle outperform sheep in dry areas. While breeds like brahmans outperform everything except camels (pigs, donkeys, horses, sheep, other cattle, rabbits, dogs and cats). To some extent they even outperform camels.

It's not the same as making a round trip of 500-1000 km annually over barren hills.

They used to drive the cattle to markets in Adelaide. That's about 1500kms from the first significant town on the Northern Territory side: Alice Springs. For most it would have been a somewhat longer trip. To get to Tennant Creek the next major regional hub was another 500kms. The next stop north is Daly Waters which is yet another 500kms. That's using the road. The cattlemen didn't. So it was probably somewhat longer than that. I raise your 500-1000km trip with at least a 1500km one. (Yes, people did make this journey, it took something like 8 months).

I would like to see the relative numbers of cattle and sheep in this region, but my real 'beef' is with the pigs.

Sheep don't go much past the Goyder Line. Cattle go right the way through.

I will definitely need to see some compelling evidence before I can believe this.

There's no goats or sheep in Longreach.

 

[Cynovolans]

If you don't understand the optimum feed-load for cattle then we shouldn't be having this conversation. (Hint: it isn't grass).

We feed corn to the school cows.(that and some other feed)

Please provide a citation for that claim. And if its true: do pigs really need grain?

Monsoonal Australia: A land, ecology and man in the northern lowlands and Friendly Vermin: a survey of feral livestock in Australia.

The only alternative for pigs getting carbohydrates is eating roots, and from what I know there are no big root-eaters in the Arabian desert.