HOF Challenge Series XI Discussion Thread

[Denniz]

Challenge X has less than a month left. It is time to start kicking around ideas for Challenge XI. Feedback on Challenge X (good and bad) is also appreciated.

The information required to properly define a game:

Settings:

• Victory Condition - Required
• Difficulty - Required (only one unless you also provide the adjustments)
• Starting Era - Required
• Map Size - Required
• Map Type - Optional
• Speed - Required
• Civ - - optional (might be best to pick one)
• Opponents -- optional (might be best to pick some or all)
• Required Options - optional (see below)
• Illegal Options - optional (see below)

Options:

• City Flipping after Conquest
• No Barbarians
• Raging Barbarians
• Aggressive AI
• Random Personalities
• Permanent Alliances
• Always War
• One-City Challenge
• Require Complete Kills
• No City Razing
• No Vassal States
• No Tribal Villages
• Choose Religions
• No Random Events

 

[Pollina]

I (for one) had fun playing Series X, but I’m not really picky with game settings in general. The most enjoyable game for me was game 2. I liked that it had an uncommon and rather crappy leader/map type combo, but otherwise pretty normal settings.

Overall difficulty was quite a bit lower than in previous series. Most of my submissions were first trials. Oddly enough, the game on noble was probably the hardest (least reliably winnable, especially without cheese ) and the one on deity by far the easiest.

Six games felt much less of a drag than ten games. I’m not sure, if I would have had the time and endurance to finish a 10 games series.

Here is a set of six games that might serve as a basis for further discussion:

Game 1 (Noble)

Spoiler :

• Victory Condition: Conquest
• Difficulty: Noble
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Highlands
• Speed: Epic
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events, Always War
• Civ: Pacal
• Opponents: Gilgamesh, Isabella, Joao, Mehmed, Louis XIV, Montezuma, Mansa Musa, Sitting Bull

Game 2 (Prince)

Spoiler :

• Victory Condition: Diplomatic
• Difficulty: Prince
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Boreal
• Speed: Quick
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Civ: Catherine
• Opponents: Kubai Khan, Mao Zedong, Bismarck, Ragnar, De Gaulle, Boudica, Cyrus, Charlemagne

Game3 (Monarch)

Spoiler :

• Victory Condition: Space Colony
• Difficulty: Monarch
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Oasis
• Speed: Normal
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Illegal Options: No Barbarians
• Civ: Mansa Musa
• Opponents: Zara Yaqob, Shaka, Saladin, Hatshepsut, Hannibal, Julius Caesar

Game 4 (Emperor)

Spoiler :

Variant A (Series with AP game):
• Victory Condition: Religious
• Difficulty: Emperor
• Starting Era: Classical
• Map Size: Large
• Map Type: Hemispheres
• Speed: Normal
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events, Raging Barbarians
• Illegal Options: No Barbarians
• Civ: Gilgamesh
• Opponents: Hammurabi, Pacal, Frederick, Churchill, Washington, Justinian, Suryavarman, Willem van Oranje, Alexander, Napoleon

Variant B (Series without AP game):
• Victory Condition: Conquest
• Difficulty: Emperor
• Starting Era: Classical
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Hemispheres
• Speed: Normal
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Civ: Gilgamesh
• Opponents: Hammurabi, Pacal, Frederick, Churchill, Washington, Justinian, Suryavarman, Willem van Oranje, Alexander, Napoleon

Game 5 (Immortal)

Spoiler :

• Victory Condition: Culture
• Difficulty: Immortal
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Ice Age
• Speed: Normal
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events
• Civ: Hannibal
• Opponents: Asoka, Roosevelt, Wang Kong, Huayna Capac, Tokugawa, Elizabeth

Game 6 (Deity)

Spoiler :

• Victory Condition: Domination
• Difficulty: Deity
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Small
• Map Type: Pangaea
• Speed: Epic (Quick?)
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events, Permanent Alliances, One City Challenge
• Civ: Greece
• Opponents: Any

I basically picked some rarely used and not quite ideal map types for each victory condition along with some decent, but not overpowered leaders, and distributed the AIs so that warmongers/peacemongers are fairly balanced (where intended) and at least one leader per civ was used. I also tried to avoid map type/victory condition combos in which some favorable/unfavorable landmass distribution might give a player a substantial advantage/disadvantage (like fractal, Continents, Ice Age for AP or conquest games). Game speeds other than normal are used to balance difficulty.

AP games aren’t very popular in challenge series, it seems. Why not leave them out in this next series for once?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Rather than PA OCC deity, which is pretty easy to win even if it's hard to get a good time, why not just go no PA non-OCC deity domination? It can't be any harder than that one EMP OCC always war game many moons ago.

Edit: I'd be all for dropping PA or at LEAST the reliance on them in future games, and I always loved unusual maps.

 

[WastinTime]

Is there any chance we can spice things up with new restrictions? It's hard to come up with new challenges using the same old options. GoTM games do great job of this by setting up rule-breaking hand-made maps. I know this series cannot (and should not) do that because it must use HoF-legal games.

Is it possible to check games for other things? For example:
What if we wanted a game that was required to run the espionage slider at 50% or higher. Anything lower disqualifies the game.

or.... what if we had to use automated workers?

or.... must own all 7 holy shrines

or... must have one of every Great Person

etc.

 

[Denniz]

Is there any chance we can spice things up with new restrictions? It's hard to come up with new challenges using the same old options. GoTM games do great job of this by setting up rule-breaking hand-made maps. I know this series cannot (and should not) do that because it must use HoF-legal games.

Is it possible to check games for other things? For example:
What if we wanted a game that was required to run the espionage slider at 50% or higher. Anything lower disqualifies the game.

or.... what if we had to use automated workers?

or.... must own all 7 holy shrines

or... must have one of every Great Person

etc.

That would require coding. And that is assuming the information were easy to find in the save file.

 

[WastinTime]

Some things could be manually checked in the final save afterwards, but I'd be happy with an honor system for most things. Who would bother to cheat to win a challenge series? And who cares is someone does?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Some things could be manually checked in the final save afterwards, but I'd be happy with an honor system for most things. Who would bother to cheat to win a challenge series? And who cares is someone does?

It's better for the integrity of HoF if submissions are verifiable, even if at least just via final save easily.

 

[WastinTime]

It's better for the integrity of HoF if submissions are verifiable, even if at least just via final save easily.

The games would still be HoF legal. Even if, for example, you did not achieve the challenge requirement to get one of each Great Person, etc.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The games would still be HoF legal. Even if, for example, you did not achieve the challenge requirement to get one of each Great Person, etc.

That's good, but when I think of the logistics of anything involving manual checking saves I shudder, and I'm not even HoF staff.

Maybe stuff that could be a simple search call on the "player log"? A lot depends on what is practical to instantly track, and I've no hand in that code to know what's what.

 

[lymond]

How bout this:

• Victory Condition: Time (High Score obviously)
• Difficulty: Chieftain
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Standard
• Map Type: Big & Small
• Speed: Normal
• Required: No Tribal Villages, No Random Events, No Vassal States
• Civ: Inca or Qin/China or Stalin/Russia or DeGaulle/France
• Opponents: Any

(This could be turned into a candidate for OCC so as not to be such a drag. It'd be interesting to see how to maximize score to 2050AD with only one city. However, normal game allows for try to fill the tables at this level)

Also, I liked to see some Leaders/Civs designated that aren't played often in these challenges.

one on deity by far the easiest.

It was like settler level. Basically had to do nothing to win but build UN. Still kinda fun though just messing around with a Future start, plus it was very quick.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

OCC Time = build all wonders, suppress AI victory, but keep them alive to trade for corporation resources to grow even larger than usual (probably sushi on garbage/small).

I'm not sure that would be very thought provoking . IMO it'd be better to avoid time victories in general but if people really want them I can't see anything other than near-domination corporation milking winning out.

 

[lymond]

Well, honestly the idea is pretty selfish on my part. I need several of those parameters for QM. I haven't seen a Chieftain game ever since I've been doing HOF. It would be a nice relaxing builder game.

I missed on on Time VC in the past cause I kept winning culture before 2050AD, so maybe OCC is best for Time.

 

[Denniz]

The games would still be HoF legal. Even if, for example, you did not achieve the challenge requirement to get one of each Great Person, etc.

That's good, but when I think of the logistics of anything involving manual checking saves I shudder, and I'm not even HoF staff.

I am and there is no way I am going to sign up for that.

------------------

The Challenge results, like the Gauntlets, are fully automated. Not only would we have to manually check saves but it would be necessary to build an override to automatic results.

If you really want to do something like that, start a thread and let folks participate that way.

 

[Denniz]

Also, I liked to see some Leaders/Civs designated that aren't played often in these challenges.

So, who where you thinking of?

 

[lymond]

So, who where you thinking of?

Americuh
Babs
China
Carthage
France
Germany
Greece
Inca (I know, but you can still designate it for a specific challenge)
Khmer
Mali
Native America
Russia
Vikings

The civs in italics need representin' badly

Maps:

Fractal
Global Highlands
Ice Age
Oasis

Levels:

Chieftain

VCs:

Time (but only OCC hopefully)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Inca shouldn't be a reach, as they are allowed in the general tables. Still, I question the point of specifically making an exception for perhaps the most-spammed civ in the HoF overall or at least one of the most .

 

[lymond]

I rarely ever play Inca and never in HOF. I think there was an Inca Gauntlet not long ago, but it might have been Mara. I have to play at least 2 Mara games here at some point, but I absolutely dread it. Started a Mara challenger a couple sessions ago and my eyes were watering about 50 turns in.

Anyway, it's a challenger game. If everyone is playing Inca for that challenge, no big deal.

 

[Bugio]

Inca on quick maybe? at least quechua could only be useful for one or two cities.

 

[Ozbenno]

Could always play Inca below Monarch level as well, also nerfs the quechas a bit.

 

[lymond]

Could always play Inca below Monarch level as well, also nerfs the quechas a bit.

Chieftain>OCC>Time