HOF Mod Support/Suggestions

[Seraphinus]

I think HOF mod does not give any otherwise hidden information and find him very useful, IMO. If people don't like him they can easely turn it off thru very detailed options screens.

Regarding available tech AI can research - if you know what AI researched already (basically this information is not known only if you are in war with someone), you can find out what AI can research - just look research screen.

So, I will be glad if HOF mod will be required as is the situation with HOF.

 

[Mutineer]

1). You can not found out what AI can research, because you do not know what tech AI has if you do not have prerequisites for it. That information definatly is not avalible in unmodded game, exept by inderect abservation. (Like what units AI has, what building visible, what civis AI addopt.

2). Default value is 0 on some middle dificulty levels. On higher level default -1 on lover +1.
3) Yes, Mousing over migth give this information (exept for default values), but useally one would not do it every turn, as it take to mach time.
Ability to see this information at glance with out interupting your line of trougth is not avalible.
Default values are not avalible to.

 

[Denniz]

First of all, I don't know if it is appropriate discuss this here. @ainwood & @AlanH, if you think it best, please move this discussion to the HOF Mod 1.61 Support/Suggestions thread. edit: Discussion was moved here. /edit

1). You can not found out what AI can research, because you do not know what tech AI has if you do not have prerequisites for it. That information definatly is not avalible in unmodded game, exept by inderect abservation. (Like what units AI has, what building visible, what civis AI addopt.

The Exotic Foreign Adviser Mod which was incorporated into the HOF Mod, checks your perquisites as part of the decision to display an AI's tech. I you start a trading session with a given AI you will see the same techs as on the tech screen. (If you have an example where this is not the case, please post a savegame so we can address it.)

2). Default value is 0 on some middle dificulty levels. On higher level default -1 on lover +1.

I don't understand what this means. Could you elaborate?

3) Yes, Mousing over migth give this information (exept for default values), but useally one would not do it every turn, as it take to mach time.
Ability to see this information at glance with out interupting your line of trougth is not avalible.

The definition of a "spoiler" is something that you cannot find out for yourself from the information provided by the vanilla game. Inferred information is fair game as long as you can do it for information available. The amount of work required is not an issue. The purpose of these kind of mods is to streamline the process of playing by eliminating some of the tedious information gathering like checking everything every turn.

Default values are not avalible to.

Please explain.

________________________________________

As I noted above, if you or anyone finds something that is a spoiler by the definition above, or however the GOTM staff defines it, then please post a savegame here or e-mail us at hof@civfanatics.net.

 

[Mutineer]

ON low dificulty AI starting with +1 to played in relationships.
On higth dificulty AI start with -1 to player in relationships.

About spoiler. I would disagree with your definition of spoiler. Spoiler is not only the information that could be found by other means, but it is about presentation, time and knolidge of user needed to get this information.

For example, Information about AI researched slavery is avalible, if you know that AI addopt slavery. It is easy to find even if you miss message, just open dialog and you will see the civics AI in. Yes, it takes time and need user undestanding, the same like Mousing over and compare different civs.

So, by collecting and providing information in easy way you do provide the spoiler.

Sorry, I can not offer you example of spoiler in your definition, but are you sure your mod does check for user prerequisites and AI prerequisites in case if AI far behind in this pach of research tree?

 

[Denniz]

ON low dificulty AI starting with +1 to played in relationships.
On higth dificulty AI start with -1 to player in relationships.

If you are saying it is showing the wrong value under those circumstances, I'll check it out. Thanks.

About spoiler. I would disagree with your definition of spoiler. Spoiler is not only the information that could be found by other means, but it is about presentation, time and knolidge of user needed to get this information.

For example, Information about AI researched slavery is avalible, if you know that AI addopt slavery. It is easy to find even if you miss message, just open dialog and you will see the civics AI in. Yes, it takes time and need user undestanding, the same like Mousing over and compare different civs.

So, by collecting and providing information in easy way you do provide the spoiler.

I understand your point of view. We disagree.

IMHO, the amount of time people have for, or effort they are willing to put into, gathering information that is available in the game shouldn't be an advantage or disadvantage. i.e. The challenge should be the game not the game interface.

Fortunately, there is a lot of precedent for the definition we are using. There are many utilities used for Civ3 approved for use with Civ3 HOF and Civ3 GOTMs. The two most advanced ones are CRpMapStat by Dianthus and CivAssistII by ainwood.

Sorry, I can not offer you example of spoiler in your definition, but are you sure your mod does check for user prerequisites and AI prerequisites in case if AI far behind in this pach of research tree?

That is good, then. We are reasonable sure that it works as intended. But there are lot more of you out there, so players are more likely to notice something we missed.

 

[Mutineer]

I am cathegorically disagree that it is only time spend on collecting of information. Your MOD actially removing part of the game.

It could be considered only time if you play again 2-7 opponents. But if you play again 17 opponent, it create 17**2 posible relationships. NO human been can sort if out mechanically and remember results by just mousing over.
One sort it out by aplying logic, not by going and looking try all the columes.
Colume information exist only for final check of 1-2 candidates.

SO, if you intend on removing part of the game, then you can claim that it work as intended. But do not say it does not spoil the game, because it does.

Idea of the game, like civilisation, is in applying logic and intuition in complex situation. If you simplify situation you actially killing the game.

If I would use your definition I can write an emulator of the city and by request of user suggest optimum build/research/ worker action order corresponded to user define criteria, or offer him a different wariants.
I would use only information that avalible in game, just reducing amount of time, logic and intuition user need to spend in order to make a decision (Execly what you are doing). By your definition it should be a valid mod.

If that definition was accepted in the past, it does not mean that it was the rigth decision. May be for mach less complex and situation depended diplomacy in Civ3 it was not matter, but for CIV4 it is clear a spoiler and agains the spirit of fair competition.

 

[Denniz]

I am cathegorically disagree that it is only time spend on collecting of information. Your MOD actially removing part of the game.
<snip>
Idea of the game, like civilisation, is in applying logic and intuition in complex situation. If you simplify situation you actially killing the game.

I understand your point. But as I said, we disagree. If you find a bug, please let us know.

If I would use your definition I can write an emulator of the city and by request of user suggest optimum build/research/ worker action order corresponded to user define criteria, or offer him a different wariants.
I would use only information that avalible in game, just reducing amount of time, logic and intuition user need to spend in order to make a decision (Execly what you are doing). By your definition it should be a valid mod.

As for an emulator, at the risk of sounding sarcastic, that might be a cool tool if you could build it. Kind of like building an AI to play the AI.

If that definition was accepted in the past, it does not mean that it was the rigth decision. May be for mach less complex and situation depended diplomacy in Civ3 it was not matter, but for CIV4 it is clear a spoiler and agains the spirit of fair competition.

The community accepted the past definition. If you want, you can try to convince people that Civ4 is different.

This discussion was moved here because it sounded like you were reporting a bug. I would suggest starting a another thread here and/or over in the GOTM forum if you wish to pursue this topic.

All I ask is that you be clear that you are not reporting a bug (ie. a spoiler by the current definition), but are contesting the concept of what is an acceptable level of automated help with information available within the game. Good Luck.

 

[superslug]

If that definition was accepted in the past, it does not mean that it was the rigth decision. May be for mach less complex and situation depended diplomacy in Civ3 it was not matter, but for CIV4 it is clear a spoiler and agains the spirit of fair competition.

From an absolutist point of view, I understand what you're saying. However, most of the players here in the HOF prefer such utilities, much as they did in HOF III. Since the majority of the community wants them, we allow those we see fit for competition. We want people to have as much fun as possible.

 

[Moonsinger]

I am cathegorically disagree that it is only time spend on collecting of information. Your MOD actially removing part of the game.

It could be considered only time if you play again 2-7 opponents. But if you play again 17 opponent, it create 17**2 posible relationships. NO human been can sort if out mechanically and remember results by just mousing over.
One sort it out by aplying logic, not by going and looking try all the columes.
Colume information exist only for final check of 1-2 candidates.

SO, if you intend on removing part of the game, then you can claim that it work as intended. But do not say it does not spoil the game, because it does.

Idea of the game, like civilisation, is in applying logic and intuition in complex situation. If you simplify situation you actially killing the game.

If I would use your definition I can write an emulator of the city and by request of user suggest optimum build/research/ worker action order corresponded to user define criteria, or offer him a different wariants.
I would use only information that avalible in game, just reducing amount of time, logic and intuition user need to spend in order to make a decision (Execly what you are doing). By your definition it should be a valid mod.

If that definition was accepted in the past, it does not mean that it was the rigth decision. May be for mach less complex and situation depended diplomacy in Civ3 it was not matter, but for CIV4 it is clear a spoiler and agains the spirit of fair competition.

I absolutely have no idea on what the HOF mods do. I have never used any of the feature you have mentioned. I don't even know that they exist. I installed the HOF mod because it's required. That's all I know so far. Just as long as the HOF staffs and the owner of this site promise me that their HOF mod doesn't attempt to track my system info, password, ip address, credit card number, my bank account, or to poke hole into my firewall, I'm cool with it. Since they haven't yet officially promised me any of that, I'm a little bits concern.

 

[superslug]

Just as long as the HOF staffs and the owner of this site promise me that their HOF mod doesn't attempt to track my system info, password, ip address, credit card number, my bank account, or to poke hole into my firewall, I'm cool with it.

The HOF mod does NOT attempt any of that.

I understand internet privacy concerns, I really do. I'm not even sure some of my fellow HOF staff know my R/L first name! We on the staff are very committed to player privacy. It's a primary reason we don't publically discuss game rejections, nor do we disclose how many games individual players have really submitted, just how many have been accepted.

We're here purely for CFC and the game.

 

[Kalleyao]

The HOF mod is good as it is.

 

[Mutineer]

From an absolutist point of view, I understand what you're saying. However, most of the players here in the HOF prefer such utilities, much as they did in HOF III. Since the majority of the community wants them, we allow those we see fit for competition. We want people to have as much fun as possible.

It is not an absolutist point of view.
If my memory does not fail me, in Civ3 diplomacy were preset. Some civs did not like specific others and did like some others.
So, one's one work it out it was not mach point to hide this information, as that did not change mach from game to game.

On other hand, Hof spoiler greatly reduce game immersion. One does not need any longer to follow AI politic, who has which religion, who declare on whom. Who has border tencion. The only think Gamer need now is to look on diplomatic table.
It's diminish the game, make it less enjoable. In addition you claim to run hall of fame, but at the same time you DEMAND to use spoiler mod in order to take part in it.

I am soorry, I fail to see logic in that.

I undestand you defending your child (HOF mod), but I would suggest reexamine what that actially does to the game.

 

[Thrar]

If you think so...

First, you're not forced to use that part of the mod you call spoiler. In fact, it's turned off by default.
Second, you could take out a piece of paper, and work out that diplomacy matrix yourself from what the standard F4 advisor says. Takes a long time, but all the info is there, that's the point. If you don't want it shown clearly and tidily, don't turn it on.

 

[Dianthus]

I absolutely have no idea on what the HOF mods do. I have never used any of the feature you have mentioned. I don't even know that they exist.

Some of the features are pretty similar to stuff from CRpMapStat, such as messages when the dom limit is close, or when trades are available, etc. I probably shouldn't play favourites, but Civ4lerts and Exotic Foreign Advisor are especially good!

 

[Dianthus]

@Mutineer, thanks for your opinion. Mostly it seems to be that glance screen on the Exotic Foreign Advisor that you feel strongly about. Is that correct?

 

[Moonsinger]

Some of the features are pretty similar to stuff from CRpMapStat, such as messages when the dom limit is close, or when trades are available, etc. I probably shouldn't play favourites, but Civ4lerts and Exotic Foreign Advisor are especially good!

Cool! How do I turn them on? Where exactly is the on/off switch for them? I have read the HOF mod instruction carefully, but don't see any mentioning about the on/off switch. From what I heard, they are turned off by default.

 

[ruff_hi]

Cool! How do I turn them on? Where exactly is the on/off switch for them? I have read the HOF mod instruction carefully, but don't see any mentioning about the on/off switch. From what I heard, they are turned off by default.

As I understand it - there are two ways. 1) via the HOF-???.ini file or via the 2 HOF tabs under the 'options' screen.

 

[Dianthus]

As I understand it - there are two ways. 1) via the HOF-???.ini file or via the 2 HOF tabs under the 'options' screen.

Exactly right ruff_hi, though I would suggest using the options screen rather than editting the .ini file. When using the mod there are two extra tabs, imaginatively named "HOF 1" and "HOF 2". Changing these options is effective immediately, so you can experiment with different options without having to restart.

@Moonsinger, see http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php#config

 

[Moonsinger]

@Moonsinger, see http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php#config

Ok, I see it now. Thanks!

Config file settings

All of the configuration for this mod is contained in the "Mods\HOF-1.61.003\HOF-1.61.003.ini" file. The file has comments throughout, so should be self-explanatory.

However, editting this file is not necessary as all options are edittable from extra tabs on the Options screen within Civ4. Hovering over the options shows some (hopefully) useful information about the option. Almost all options will affect the game immediately the options screen is closed. So, for instance, the Exotic Foreign Advisor can be enabled while in the middle of game without having to restart Civ4.

The options screen can be reached prior to starting a game by clicking on Advanced:

Then on Options:

The options screen can be reached while playing a game by pressing Esc, then clicking on Options:

Didn't you just add that in recently? I don't remember seeing those intructions there before. How can I possibly miss all that?

 

[Dianthus]

Didn't you just add that in recently?

No, that section has always been there!

How can I possibly miss all that?

I won't answer that, might get myself in trouble .