horizontal + vertical expansion

[alex sword]

Percy, you're right - I don't have any good model yet and I'm flooding this topic. I promise that there will be no my posts concerning "Civ math.model" unless I don't have a solid version which passed at least my own pilot tests.

So, guys, any early ideas if you have any please send to my private box.

best wishes, Alex.

 

[Percy]

alex, i do encourage you to start a thread for this project of yours. I'm sure some people would be interested in contributing. I know i would be interested in reading about it.
It's just that everytime i come and check this thread to have more input on the subject, it deals with something else entirely =P Take my post, for example...

 

[popejubal]

Hey! It's a game! I really like reading about some ideas/strategies as far as it not includes any mathematical analysis. I saw some on the forums and I skipped them entirely. Part of every game is some illusion. If you look at civ4 as a problem that needs to be solved, then yes, we can make dissection of every single aspect of the game just to make the greatest score. But it wouldn't be fun anymore. And following the best mathematical way in your game will prolong your gametime X-times.

It wouldn't be fun anymore... for you.

I happen to like mathematical puzzles. It's one of the reasons why I like the entire Civ series so much.


If anyone wants to take on this challenge of looking for a generalizable algorithm (even just to the point of heuristsics for us poor players who don't know when the land says SE and when it says CE), I'll provide all of the moral support I have on hand. I just won't actually do any work on it.

 

[axident]

Hermit, I noticed something for the first time the other game, and I can't believe I failed to notice it before: most post-Ancient resources are happy-causers first, maybe some health later. Bananas are the exception. Spice, wine, silk, whales, sugar, dye, etc.

This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with vert vs. horizontal, but for some reason I remembered this thread. Personally I think horizontal is more important because you grab more resources that way, but the maintenance kills you without org/financial/courthouses/currency or other trade routes. You can always grow upwards later, but grabbing more land later on usually means war or a tedious cultural annexation process.

 

[UncleJJ]

Hermit, I noticed something for the first time the other game, and I can't believe I failed to notice it before: most post-Ancient resources are happy-causers first, maybe some health later. Bananas are the exception. Spice, wine, silk, whales, sugar, dye, etc.

In the early game health resources are much easier to acquire than happiness. When we have the initial 4 health in cities it is common to have 2 of the 3 seafood, 1 or 2 of the 3 grains (doubled by granary) and 2 of the 4 pasture / camp health resources. So I often have an initial 4 health + 2 seafood + 4 grains with granary + 2 pasture/camp = 12 health and if I build near fresh water and keep 4 forests I can call on 16 health before needing to consider aquaducts or waiting for calendar and guilds.

At that same time happiness is a nightmare. Only gold or ivory and if near tundra fur or silver are available and I only seem to get 1 of those in about 50% of games. So the clear limitation to vertical growth in the early game is happiness. But as many have already noted their are lots of solutions and I won't go through them all in detail. With pyramids you can take Representation otherwise research Monarchy for a reliable solution. Multiple religions and Calendar resources are alternatives or suppliments to the struggle in the classical age to solve the happiness problems. The solution to vertical growth is partly based on technical progress (either by own research or trading or stealing techs) and by acquisition of resources. As you say, most of the Calendar resources and whales (Optics) and wine (Monarchy) are happiness and much of the gameplay at that time is about gaining those either by conquest or trading. I find that the most interesting part of the game with some crucial decisions to make. The value of two key buildings forge and market is determined by the availability of the happiness resources.

This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with vert vs. horizontal, but for some reason I remembered this thread. Personally I think horizontal is more important because you grab more resources that way, but the maintenance kills you without org/financial/courthouses/currency or other trade routes. You can always grow upwards later, but grabbing more land later on usually means war or a tedious cultural annexation process.

I guess it a matter of how you word it but I don't really think either vertical or horizontal expansion is any more important than the other. Both are essential if you going to win. It just depends how you schedule them into your plans or are forced to take certain opportunities depending on the map or the opposition.

Horizontal expansion does grab a lot of tiles and resources included but it is not very productive and you can easily take it too far and stunt your growth. I find it very easy to limit myself to 4 cities, while concentrating on vertical aspects of city improvement and let the AI over-expand around my holdings. Once their city is in place with only a couple of archers and is size 2 I walk over with a few swords to take over possession. The AI doesn't seem to worry too much about losing a couple of easy cities early on and then I can take his capital a bit later with catapults and other troops and either wipe him or vassalise him.

Vertical expansion; that is technological development and building key infrastructure buildings is important to maintain efficiency in your capital and core cities. Otherwise a lot of your commerce and specialist beakers is just at their raw values. Well developed core cities can maintain a resonable tech rate in a war of expansion, keeping the technological ascendancy and then accelerate in periods of peace while new acquisitions are brought under control. So I see vertical and horizontal expansion as a series of overlapping periods where either one or the other is emphasised only to be succeeded by the other.

 

[futurehermit]

The more you can do both simultaneously though the stronger your game will be imo.

Also, it should be mentioned that the culture slider can be used to help with and vertical dev't. Especially if you are creative, you can get cheap theatres and coliseums, run 20% culture, and get 6

What you lose in science slider is made up, if you have a large enough empire, by the additional cottages you get to run.

 

[DaviddesJ]

At that same time happiness is a nightmare. Only gold or ivory and if near tundra fur or silver are available

And gems also.

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, happiness is definitely more of a concern early. You can also get a couple extra health by settling on fresh water. No such luck for happiness. Drama and/or Monarchy are important. I tend to go with monarchy now since Drama got pushed back in the tech tree in BtS (sux )

 

[alex sword]

most post-Ancient resources are happy-causers first, maybe some health later

Very good point. This is a key reason why whipping becomes uneffective. Cities are larger = it takes more time for thgrowth = more sense to let them grow + build more cottage.

I believe that optimal tiles development strategy should somehow take into account how many happy resources are available.

 

[futurehermit]

I wanted to say that the Khmer are a fairly good candidate for horizontal + vertical expansion.

They have creative, which is nice for horizontal expansion, but also for vertical expansion if you use cheap theatres and coliseums and 20% culture slider. And they have expansive, which is nice for vertical expansion as well, but also for whipping to aid horizontal expansion (cheap granaries). Their UB--1 free food--is also appealing for vertical expansion.

Their UU leaves a lot to be desired of course. It would be more appealing if it was resourceless, but the fact that elephants are fairly rare and the bonus is not that significant leaves me saying "meh".

But I'm playing a game with them right now using the h+v approach and am having success.

EDIT: The UB also has some very nice synergy with going for the HG, which also drives vertical expansion! (I nabbed it in my current game)

 

[UncleJJ]

And gems also.

I know, but they usually require Iron Working while gold and silver just need Mining. I tend to associate gems with the Calendar resources even though they come with a different route. Many of the Calendar resources often need Iron Working as well to cut them out of jungles.

 

[AnaNg]

Is getting to IW that big of an issue? Seems like lately I can't even find a copper resource anywhere so it's been always rushing to IW anyway.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

IW is a fairly expensive tech.

 

[BronzeAge]

my experience with bts so far is that horizontal + vertical expansion is the key to victory (unless going for cultural or using specific strategies like obsolete's).

Futurehermit, I am doing some of my own thinking here and it would seem Obsolete's production powerhouses are also related to vertical expansion. If you are going after a hammer economy, then the more population you have, the more hammers you are able to harvest in one form or another.

What has me in doubt, is why so many people insist on mines when going after production. Early in the game, mines make sense, but later shouldn't windmills take over?

Eventually you come to a tech point where you gain +1 h per windmill, and also even 1 commerce.

Compare a windmill to a mine at that point.

1h 1c 1f vs 2h

The windmill seems superior in this area. Though maybe that is not 100% true. I just realized now, that mines gain +1 h for having a railroad later on.

But, the extra food from the windmill, leads to an extra population growth, which in turn can lead to extra hammer production. Two windmills will support a free specialist.

 

[UncleJJ]

IW is a fairly expensive tech.

Agreed.

Is getting to IW that big of an issue? Seems like lately I can't even find a copper resource anywhere so it's been always rushing to IW anyway.

Well it depends if copper or horses are available. If not then IW could be the way to go anyway. Sometimes IW is needed to harvest Calendar resources stuck in the jungle so maybe research IW before Calendar (unlikely if I want to build the Mausoleum). Usually I go for Calendar first but it depends on what other resources are available and within reach. I guess if I already had gold and silver online and forges being built in most cities I'd take IW so the gems would give a quick 2 happiness boost.

 

[DaveMcW]

Compare a windmill to a mine at that point.

Surplus food is tricky. Food-neutral comparisons are much easier to understand.

(This example assumes you are running State Property but not Caste System or Environmentalism.)

2 windmills + 1 workshop:
1f 1h 1c
1f 1h 1c
0f 3h 0c

2 mines + 1 farm:
0f 3h 0c
0f 3h 0c
2f 0h 0c

So you end up trading 1h for 2c by working the windmills. Generally 1h is slightly more valuable than 2c, but it's a very close call.

Ways to tip the balance:
Lose State Property - favors mines
Gain Caste System (BTS) - favors windmills
Gain Environmentalism (BTS) - favors windmills
Start a golden age - favors windmills
Be financial on a river - favors windmills

 

[axident]

Surplus food is tricky. Food-neutral comparisons are much easier to understand.

(This example assumes you are running State Property but not Caste System or Environmentalism.)

2 windmills + 1 workshop:
1f 1h 1c
1f 1h 1c
0f 3h 0c

2 mines + 1 farm:
0f 3h 0c
0f 3h 0c
2f 0h 0c

So you end up trading 1h for 2c by working the windmills. Generally 1h is slightly more valuable than 2c, but it's a very close call.

Ways to tip the balance:
Lose State Property - favors mines
Gain Caste System (BTS) - favors windmills
Gain Environmentalism (BTS) - favors windmills
Start a golden age - favors windmills
Be financial on a river - favors windmills

Until SP it may be worth it to mine a lot just in case you have gems or iron or whatever pop up in a mine.

 

[BronzeAge]

Thank you for the breakdown Dave. I was hoping I had spotted a flaw by some of the great builders out there, but I should have maybe known better.

I will try to keep searching for ways to tweak the hammer economy though.