How big is a division?

[M37]

Hi.
I've read dozens of books on military history but I've never been able to get the size of the battles straight.

I know a moden secton is 12 men
a platoon is 40
a company is 120

anyone know how big a birgade, division, regimint, cops ect are?
- note if you know thiers a difernce between armies US, UK, China ect.. and know the figures they would be greatly appriciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[CruddyLeper]

It depends very much on what sort of division, the era, the time period, the nation.

There isn't an easy answer, although a rule of thumb for divisions pre-WW2 is a minimum of 4 brigades - about 20,000 men in total.

A couple of things to bear in mind - one is the command structure. A Brigadier usually commands a brigade (easy eh?) but a general officer (more commonly, a general) commands bigger units.

Another thing - the logistics supply. A WW2 Chinese division wouldn't have much supply needs other than ammo and weapons, and so would be huge. An SS or Luftwaffe division of the same era would have the very best of supply, would have a huge logistics tail and so not that many actual fighting men...

Hope this helps... but it's a tricky one to pin down.

EDIT: The numbers you have used are 100% effective strengths, which are rarely achieved. Normally military units are slightly to extremely understrength.

 

[Stefan Haertel]

Isn't this military, and not history?

 

[YNCS]

It depends very much on what sort of division, the era, the time period, the nation.

A division can be as few as 8,000 men or as large as 20,000.

There isn't an easy answer, although a rule of thumb for divisions pre-WW2 is a minimum of 4 brigades - about 20,000 men in total.

British, French and German post 1916 WW1 divisions were 3 brigades.

An American heavy division (armor or mechanized infantry) has 3 maneuver brigades, a brigade of artillery (DIVARTY or division artillery), and a brigade sized division support command (DISCOM) consisting of engineers, maintenance, supply, medical, signal and all the other odds and sods. A heavy division has between 16,000 and 17,000 troops.

A couple of things to bear in mind - one is the command structure. A Brigadier usually commands a brigade (easy eh?) but a general officer (more commonly, a general) commands bigger units.

American brigades are commanded by Colonels.

 

[zjl56]

I have wondered about this too. Usually before I read this I thought devisions were about 20,000 men.

 

[nonconformist]

I know the numbers from WWII:

A squad is between 8 and 10 men.
There are around four squads to a platoon, so around 40 men.
Four platoons to a cmpany, so around 120, plus maybe attached support weapons.
I think there are around 10 (or in the 101st Airborne there were 11), so around 1200?

 

[Case]

The question 'how big is a division' is a little like 'how long is a stick' as the size of military formations has varied considerably over the last 100 years, with divisions varying greatly in size as a result.

Generally speaking, a division consists of:

Divisional HQ battalion
Recon/Cavalry Battalion
3/4 Artillery Battalions (often 3 medium battalions and 1 heavy battalion)
3/4 brigades/regiments each containing 3 battalions of some combination of infantry, armour and cavalry
Engineer battalion/regiment/brigade
Anti aircraft battalion
Signals battalion
Medical battalion
Various support units

for example, here's what an Australian Division looked like in 1941:

The total strenght of the average division is about 12,000-15,000 personnel, with attached units often taking the division to almost double its base strength. Infantry divisions have tended to have more personnel then armoured and airborne divisions (though it should be noted that 'armoured' divisions normally have as many infantry battalions as armoured battalions).

However, there is no set size and organisation for a 'division'. Different nations have used very different organisations at different times. 'Divisions' have ranged from the mini-corps the US deployed in WW1 to the large battalions the Germans were slapping the honorific 'division' on in 1945, to the company(!) sized divisions which the Paraguyan Army currently has on it's order of battle.

There are a heap of sites on this topic, which I've listed at: www.historic-battles.com/forum/index.php?topic=956.0

To get you started, my personal favorites are:
www.orbat.com (huge amounts of information on just about every aspect of this topic, though you'll have to pay for a lot of it)
www.orbat.com/site/ww2/drleo/index_01.htm (the best site on WW2)
www.britwar.co.uk (another good WW2 site)
www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/ (the current organisation of US Army divisions - though a new organisation is now being introduced)
www.awm.gov.au/atwar/structure/army_structure.htm (graphical representations of Australian divisions, with a non-working link to more detailed descriptions)
http://home.fuse.net/nafziger/ (the source for this kind of stuff - if you're willing to pay)

 

[FriendlyFire]

I could have sworn a company was 250 men.

With Overstrength marine companies being 300
smallest being Signal company 160

 

[nonconformist]

It might be, I was using WWII figures for wargaming.

 

[Case]

I could have sworn a company was 250 men.

With Overstrength marine companies being 300
smallest being Signal company 160

What nation, service and date are you refering to here? You can't really generalise on this kind of thing.

The companies tend to consist of about 90-120 men, organised into 3 combat platoons (each with 3 squads), a support platoon and HQ elements. However, as I mentioned above, the size of 'companies' has differed greatly over the years. For instance, an Australian Independant [Commando] Company in WW2 was almost the size of a battalion, with all it's subordinate units being well above the normal size (for example, the rifle sections were the size of small platoons).

Incidently, the Australian War Memorial has a fantastic site on this topic at: www.awm.gov.au/atwar/structure/army_detailed_structure.htm (though this isn't currently loading )

 

[M37]

Thanks everyone guess I was way off I thoght that since an army group often just reffered to as an army was 100K a corps would be 10K and a division 1K men.

"There are around four squads to a platoon, so around 40 men. Four platoons to a cmpany, so around 120, plus maybe attached support weapons."

Sorry non-Conformist but your numbers don't add up 4 platoons each of 40 men means 160 men not 120. From what I've heard the US has 3 platoons of 40 and the USSR had 4 platoons of 30 men in each company (or is that the other way around?)

Now that a division is 10K what do you call a goup of 1 thousand men? being roughly 8 companies -960 men?

I'm asking becuse i'm trying to write a Science fiction novella - a short novel where I need to be sending thousands of men running around. However men are in short supply -i.e. total pop invoved in the war is roughly 100K Yess I know I could just make stuff up but I' want to get it as close to history as possible.

 

[nonconformist]

"There are around four squads to a platoon, so around 40 men. Four platoons to a cmpany, so around 120, plus maybe attached support weapons."

Sorry non-Conformist but your numbers don't add up 4 platoons each of 40 men means 160 men not 120. From what I've heard the US has 3 platoons of 40 and the USSR had 4 platoons of 30 men in each company (or is that the other way around?)

I meant 120 men, plus machine guns, mortars, and A/T guns usually add up to about 160. 120 is just infantry platoons.

 

[Steph]

Well, it caries with countries.

In France, for infantry, we have
- Section (about 30 mens) - Compagnie (about 120) - Bataillon - Regiment - Brigade - Division

For cavalry, we have Escadron (instead of Bataillon I think).

A thousand men should be a regiment.

 

[dunk]

So what's the command structure for all these units?

Speaking typically and present-day.

For example, what does a Lieutenant command? A Captain? and so on?

 

[nonconformist]

A squad is usually commanded by a Non-commissioned officer, a sergeant type rank. A platoon is I think a Senior Sergeant (I can't remember the name?), a company is, I think a Lieutenant 1st/2nd class or a captain. A regiment is commanded I think by a Colonel, and a Division by a Brigadier-General.

I'm just pulling this off the top of my head, so I may very well be wrong.

 

[Steph]

For France :
Brigade and above : General
Regiment : Colonel
Battalion : Commandant
Companie : Capitiane
Section : Lieutenant

 

[sabo]

a rough estimate without getting too particular is a div is between 15,000 and 20,000 troops

 

[MarineCorps]

Might be of use. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/usmc/intro.htm

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/army/intro.htm

 

[Thorgrimm]

Here is a little info on the M.E.F The USMC 'division' if you will, as they always deploy together.




Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[dunk]

Thanks Steph and Nonconformist.

So I guess Commandant would be the same as an American Major.