How civilized is too civilized?

[Lord Bayushi]

Recently I was playing a Clan game, happily waging war on my fellow civilizations with my barbarian friends in tow, when they suddenly declared me too civil and began tearing up my roads and farms. I was just wondering what factors caused the barbarians to declare you too civilized for their tastes? Is it score, relative technology level, or other factors?

BTW, I think it is kind of lame that they can sneak attack with this declaration. I was not too hurt by it, as I could immediately cast For the Horde and have a defensive army made up of barbarian troops, but I would have been in a world of hurt playing the Dovellio.

 

[BeefontheBone]

Relative score. If you're 50% above the next highest they declare. Various people have suggested doing it if your alignment changes from Evil and various other things too.

 

[daladinn]

the simplest solution to this is to stay away from the "fat cross". start building cities closer together and don't build ANYTHING that will give you culture.

 

[frenzyslave]

don't build ANYTHING that will give you culture.

I thought it was dont build courthouses? I was building culture with no problems...

 

[xienwolf]

Just put your mouse over the score and it gives you a breakdown of what precisely gives you points. In general, each happy population is a couple points per turn. Building a Tile improvement grants a couple points, getting a technology gives lots of points, being the first to a technology gives TONS of points.

Decent way to keep your score down without having to weaken your position is to spread your research across multiple branches of the tech tree so that you are never first to anything, and gift any technology that you do get first to the next highest score if you are in the lead so that they get a point boost as well.

 

[it-ogo]

Yeah, its a nice surprize if you are not aware of that. I remember I was alone on a continent together with three demon horsemen and plenty of barb demons when they decided that i am too civilized...

 

[Sarisin]

It really is a game within a game managing that point differential when you are playing a civ with the BAR trait.

My strategy is to get to trade as soon as possible and then give away techs, especially to the civ right behind me. I even let them pass me if points to enjoy my peace with the barbs.

Of course, you can easily get screwed if that ai civ gets pounded by the barbs and loses a city or two.

The worst I ever got it was having the point differential hit just as the counter hit 90. This was back when the Avatar got all those units. I was told I was too civilized and he spawned right on my border with his minions.

I'm still wondering, though, why the ai civs with the BAR trait go to war with the barbs so early. It has nothing to do with them being more civilized as they are at the bottom in points. Yet, before turn 200 in an Epic game Sheelba had the barbs pounding on them.

 

[xienwolf]

Most likely from attacking an HN Barb unit and having it allow them to declare war.

 

[kenken244]

I never liked the score-based mechanic for barbs declaring war. I would much prefer a custom function to the one we have now. Right now you can even be declared war on for having too big of a army because military factors into your score. An ideal function would factor in things like your GDP and technology, and some other things like courthouses and changing your alignment. It also might have things that move you further away from the barbs declaring war such as the size of your military and having smaller cities. To keep the clan from having their economy collapse from being forced to stay away from money-producing things, they could have no inflation, unit costs, and lower distance matinance. If this in turn makes the clan able to get a huge tech lead because of lower costs, don't allow them to put their science slider above 70%

 

[xienwolf]

Could base it off of the scores that it ranks you on at the end of the game (laverage life expectancy and whatnot). Some make it more likely, others make it less likely.

 

[Darkheart]

I agree with KenKen.

As an addition it could be based on the number of peace/open border treaties you have with other civs.... giving clan the option:- war with barbs or war with civs. Though WW may need to be tweaked.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think that barb trait civs at war with the barbarian state should be able to get random events that reestablish peace.

 

[Darkheart]

Another idea occurred. Whilst at peace with the barbs it should be possible for the clan player to gift units to the barbs, with possibly their world spell calling them back (if they're still alive).

It would allow the clan player a certain level of HN ability and if timed right could really put the wind up your more civilised neighbours.

 

[Sarisin]

Most likely from attacking an HN Barb unit and having it allow them to declare war.

What HN unit would the barbs have that early in the game?

Are you talking about them attacking animals?

I thought when you were about to move on the tile with an animal, you had the choice to declare war or just kill the animal and not go to war.

It just wouldn't make any sense for the civ with the BAR trait to declare war over killing a Wolf, especially when it had the option not to.

I just think the BAR trait is broken since a few versions back.

 

[xienwolf]

I don't know if the AI is neccessarily smart enough to choose "NO" and realize it will still kill the animal. It is programmed to REALLY want to kill HN units, so it will choose the option it thinks allows attack, which is DoW.

 

[Darkheart]

Does anyone happen to know why it is that under AI Jonas tends to remain at peace with Barbs, whereas Sheelba tends to end up at war with them?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Could it be that she has the aggressive trait, which makes leaders more likely to declare war, and he does not?