How do i effectively use Democracy

[Hugo254]

Hello everybody. I'm new to the forums but have been playing CIV II for many years on and off. Recently i got my self totaly hooked again and improved my self a lot

On the higher levels, king and up i run into the problem that i fall behind in the tech race even when i play peacefull in democracy. Especialy as soon as a civ discovers electricity. In democracy I put my science rate as high as posible. I usually have the rates something like science 80%, tax 20%, lux 0%. I put my cities full with libraries and universaties but i still only manage to only get discoveries every 6-7 turns. Next to that, my income is really bad.

Does anyone has advice on how to use democracy in a better way?

 

[chieflookout]

check out this, which I believe is a reprinting of, Starlifter's Power Democracy thread
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87937

 

[SCG]

one thing not explicitly addressed in that thread is the effect of your science rate on the AI research rate. The AI will generally mirror your science rate, so setting your science to zero and using 1 scientist, in combo with all that mass trading will allow you to essentially dictate what techs everyone has. You will be getting one tech per turn with enough freight and the AI will be doing virtually no research. Tech gifting can be used more freely for whatever purpose you require, whether it is to decrease required # of beakers needed for the next discovery, maintaining a positive AI attitude towards you, or to guide the developement of the civs you are trading with (ie give only the techs needed to produce a large juicy trading city.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

In democracy I put my science rate as high as posible. I usually have the rates something like science 80%, tax 20%, lux 0%. I put my cities full with libraries and universaties but i still only manage to only get discoveries every 6-7 turns. Next to that, my income is really bad.

Does anyone has advice on how to use democracy in a better way?

How could you set lux to zero in democracy? How do you keep your cities from following into disorder? You should set your lux to 20-30% instead and take advantage of one of the most important features of democracy: rapid growth through celebrations. With science at 50-60% and decent (not huge) trade you can easily manage a tech every 1-3 turns.

 

[rrhal]

I have some questions about getting a good start under the notes left by Starlifter. He says he goes pretty much straight for philosophy (after monarchy). He tries to build Marco Polo's Embassy as his first wonder (but that he doesn't research Bronze Working - preferring to trade for it).

I find I run out of things for my cities to do while waiting to discover another civ to trade techs with (while I work toward philosophy). Am I being too aggressive in starting towns vs. building a few units to go out and search?

I usually build 4 cities as a despot, 8 cities as a monarch, and 12 cities as a republic - I try to become a republic at about 0 AD. During this time I'm trying to build colossus, HG, and MPE. When I try to follow the suggestions laid out above I seem to fall behind in the wonder race.

Starlifter said he didn't like to research pottery and didn't put a high priority on building the Hanging Gardens. How do you run an early republic (~0 AD) without it? Or do you stay with monarchy until you build Mikes?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I have some questions about getting a good start under the notes left by Starlifter.

Starlifter is a super player. It is hard to match his games even when following his notes. I have no claim of being able to play power democracy anywhere close to him, but here are my thoughts anyway.

I find I run out of things for my cities to do while waiting to discover another civ to trade techs with (while I work toward philosophy).

Unless you are playing OCC, you should never run out of things to do. Before trade produce settlers, you cannot have too many of those. After trade produce caravans and settlers. Again it is hard to have too many of either.

Starlifter said he didn't like to research pottery and didn't put a high priority on building the Hanging Gardens. How do you run an early republic (~0 AD) without it? Or do you stay with monarchy until you build Mikes?

Hanging Gardens is an essential wonder in higher levels (Deity and Emperor), but not so in lower levels. You general strategy seems fine to me. But keep in mind that every game could be different and you have to adapt your strategy to the settings.

 

[Ace]

HG is not essential in Democracy at Diety level. Skip it and go directly to Mike's C. Marketplaces are the key because they boost the effect of the lux that you provide, (as well as the coins). HG is great, but it expires too quickly, and, at Diety, it is a favorite of the AIs. You have to push hard to get both HG and Colosseus, so its simpler to just get Colosseus. I believe Starlifter didn't like to research Pottery because: 1) he delayed getting navagation as long as possible to avoid reducing his trade bonuses, 2) the extra tech slowed down his early research, and 3) he felt he could always get it from the AIs when he needed it.

I don't have too much experience at early Republic, but the idea is the same. Build Marketplaces, and temples, and jack up the lux rate. Being carefull not too have more than 1 ship homed in each city. Those red shields caused by units away from home do not respond to lux!

 

[Peaster]

HG is critical for fast early growth at Diety, which is critical for most competitive strategies - EC, EL, GOTM score - or just beating the AI if you are a noobie. So, I always build it at Deity. Maybe it is not critical if you mainly want to run up a big score later in the game, perhaps the primary reason for Democracy (?).

It is curious that (Power) Democracy seems to be a favorite govt here at CFC, probably resulting from the writings and successes of Starlifter and Andu many years ago. At Apolyton, the Civ2 theorists [Samson, solo, DaveV, La Fayette, SlowThinker...] generally preferred faster leaner systems, and didn't care much about high scores, or the fine points of (Power) Democracy. I think Demo was mainly a late game tool in some of the EL strategies.

My experience at Multiplayer is quite limited, but IMO the first player to build HG should generally win at Diety - which makes such a game pretty simplistic. For this reason, most MP games are played at King. Even so, I think Demo is rare [but I could be wrong about this MP stuff].

I guess if you are playing for fun, there is no objectively "right" way to play. In my opinion, that comment also applies to high score games, where endurance generally trumps strategy. For most other styles, in which speed and growth matter, I definitely recommend HG at Emperor or Diety level.

 

[chieflookout]

speaking of score...to get the bonus for a wow, do you have to build it yourself, or just own it at the end?

 

[Sharwood]

Just own it.

 

[rrhal]

Power Democracy is great for scoring an impressive score - it also is a good way to build the spaceship. 12 size 20+ cities can usually crank out the fastest possible ship and get it to AC. You can even wait for the AI to launch (they always launch a slower ship) and rush build the last bits of your ship.

 

[sethos]

30% tax, 30% science, 40% lux (celebrate!).
Trade is the key. Build caravans whenever and wherever possible.
Before I go to dem, i use fundmentalism to raise my income and to build market-places, temples and coliseums and other city improvements.

 

[WildPony]

My experience at Multiplayer is quite limited, but IMO the first player to build HG should generally win at Diety - which makes such a game pretty simplistic. For this reason, most MP games are played at King. Even so, I think Demo is rare [but I could be wrong about this MP stuff].

.

I played a lot of multi player duelles in the German Deity league (normal production/normal movement). This will come as a big surprise to many, but the most dominant wonder in those games in a typical medium sized world was Lighthouse. With 2 equal players, LH would beat HG 75% of the time in "separate land" games. Hg is of course great, but the benefits brought forth by the Lamp were unparalleled. I made a case for the lamp in another thread, ironically entitled "Worst Wonders"...

exerp.... " Versus Humans, this wonder is so powerful that it is commonly banned. Dominate the sea, get all the steals you want while keeping your enemy from getting any. Land all the Foreign trades you want while keeping the enemy from landing any. Send all the Vet Crusaders (or elephants or horses... or explorers) you want to his shores while keeping him from sending any to you... keeping him within a "defend every city" framework while you expand unprotected like a wild man."

Of course what is highly useful vs. the enfeebled ai differs fantastically from that which you would find indispensable vs. strong humans. Similarly you would use different tactics to catch a mouse than you would to slay a dragon.

The Pyramid Alternative: Since Republic cities in deity begin to celebrate widespread on their own with the help (again ironically) of pirates at around the 36th city, another strategy emerged known as "Critical Mass" or the "Critical Mass Pyramid Strategy" (Credit to bhaal on this one for revealing this to the league after first dominating an entire season with this as his little secret ). "Critical mass" comes approximately around the 36th city, the point at which pirates appear civ-wide in size 3 cities. In this strategy, one would race to 36+ cities building Pyramids somewhere along the way which in turn races the cities to size 3's where they can be celebrated to 4's, 5's and 6's with no other wonders or buildings, taking advantage of the fact that a pirate is transformed all the way to a happy guy or gal with a mere two lux. Of course with food being limited, Harbors allow the cities to celebrate larger yet. Since Pyramids is unique and powerful in the service it provides, and can be nicely complemented later on by Mikes and/or Bachs, HG vs. Pyramids in a "No Lighthouse" game has created some very fine matchups.

 

[WildPony]

Hello everybody. I'm new to the forums but have been playing CIV II for many years on and off. Recently i got my self totaly hooked again and improved my self a lot

On the higher levels, king and up i run into the problem that i fall behind in the tech race even when i play peacefull in democracy. Especialy as soon as a civ discovers electricity. In democracy I put my science rate as high as posible. I usually have the rates something like science 80%, tax 20%, lux 0%. I put my cities full with libraries and universaties but i still only manage to only get discoveries every 6-7 turns. Next to that, my income is really bad.

Does anyone has advice on how to use democracy in a better way?

At the risk of sounding cliche'd, all of your problems can be solved with Super Trade. With a healthy ship chain, you can land 2 or more trades every turn and easily get a tech per turn with even a 0% science rate. Your game will be so completely transformed that you will have died to your old self and been born again.

 

[Ace]

At the risk of sounding cliche'd, all of your problems can be solved with Super Trade. With a healthy ship chain, you can land 2 or more trades every turn and easily get a tech per turn with even a 0% science rate. Your game will be so completely transformed that you will have died to your old self and been born again.

That is not quite accurate. If you set the science rate to 0%, you will never get an advance, no matter how many freight you deliver, UNLESS you have at least one scientist generating at least one beaker from a city.

This is an old trick to use if you do not want to discover an advance you are forced to research, from lack of options. Set the science rate to 0%, and make sure you have no scientists, and you can deliver freight to generate coins and not have to worry about getting an advance. This is, also, a necessity if you run the FTs to 255, and still need to deliver freight to generate coins without rolling over the FT# back to 1, or just to make sure you don't, accidently, generate to much science and do the same thing.

 

[WildPony]

That is not quite accurate. If you set the science rate to 0%, you will never get an advance, no matter how many freight you deliver, UNLESS you have at least one scientist generating at least one beaker from a city.

This is an old trick to use if you do not want to discover an advance you are forced to research, from lack of options. Set the science rate to 0%, and make sure you have no scientists, and you can deliver freight to generate coins and not have to worry about getting an advance. This is, also, a necessity if you run the FTs to 255, and still need to deliver freight to generate coins without rolling over the FT# back to 1, or just to make sure you don't, accidently, generate to much science and do the same thing.

Haha, why did i know somebody would nitpick this? I actually predicted it as i contemplated whether i should state the obvious which is that u need a scientist . Of course you have to have a scientist! All i said was that you can set the science rate to 0% which is 100% accurate! How do i know this you might ask? It's because i have done it thousands of times in hundreds of games! What i have come to notice in this site is that instead of getting an ounce of respect for the obvious grasp i have on this fine game, it feels a little bit like "let's see what we can pick apart in this mysterious outsider's posts who plays against real humans" . What gives?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

You don't understand because you play with humans and not computers. When playing civ, you take on some of the traits of your opponents. You have taken on human traits and expect human responses. We, however, have taken on computer traits, one of which is that we love and need precision...

What really gives is that there is not enough activity in the civ 2 forums. There are a few old masters eager to participate in "conversations," yet typically only one is needed to answer the odd question. Thus, in order to make a contribution, the others are forced either to offer an alternative point of view, or to nit pick. When you agree with someone's post, all there is left is to nit pick. Nit picking is the highest form of compliment around here. If you were wrong, your statements and recomendations would be demolished and the nit picking comment written as an afterthought at the end of the post.

 

[WildPony]

"You don't understand because you play with humans and not computers."

What is it exactly that i don't understand? Seriously Prof. Garfield, which part of "you can set your science rate to 0%" speaks of a human enemy and not of an ai enemy? And if i don't state the obvious "oh by the way, be sure to use a scientist", should it be assumed by "the clique" that i was completely oblivious to this exceedingly obvious fact? After i have played hundreds of games versus the highest level of enemies in multiple circles, had thousands of turns completing one-turn-techs through a long since mastered super trade game, and made dozens of posts in here which should at some point begin to make a certain impact, at what point do people start to think "hey, maybe this guy knows a thing or two about civ"?

I don't see this at all as a matter of human enemy vs. ai enemy. Not whatsoever. But even if it were do you honestly believe i have so little experience playing vs. the ai that i "just couldn't possibly understand what it must be like"? Of course i have played the ai, a bunch of times even... i just prefer the excitement of facing an enemy that comes into the game with an actual strategy, fights tactically and effectively, sets up prolific super trade in their empire as i do in mine, and has the distinct possibility of actually beating me, something that brings both exhilaration and the added benefit of constantly pushing me to new levels in this game.

"When playing civ, you take on some of the traits of your opponents. You have taken on human traits and expect human responses. We, however, have taken on computer traits, one of which is that we love and need precision..."

You feel somehow that facing the ai requires and cultivates a more precisioned game than facing a human enemy that is 50x stronger? If anybody has become ultra precisioned, it should be the guy with the marvelous enemies. Nevertheless, are you honestly standing there telling me that you guys are beginning to lose touch with your humanity because you are facing a weak ai enemy and they are melding your minds? Might not that be a bit of a stretch?

"What really gives is that there is not enough activity in the civ 2 forums. There are a few old masters eager to participate in "conversations," yet typically only one is needed to answer the odd question."

I agree with you 100% on this point. Insightful and consise.

"Thus, in order to make a contribution, the others are forced either to offer an alternative point of view, or to nit pick."

Alternative points of view are great. Being sure the asker doesn't miss any important details is terrific. Had Ace said "and just be sure u have at least one scientist or the tech won't finish", that would have been just wonderful... because in that context it wouldn't have been presented as a supposed contradiction to my comments... but rather as a reminder to the asker of something i already obviously knew but didn't state. My issue is that he seemed to assume that "i really screwed up by not mentioning that" and even perhaps that i had no idea about "the whole scientist thingy"... which from my perspective is simply preposterous.

And the thing is, it's not the first time. In previous instances i just rolled my eyes, shook my head, and went back to doing what i was doing. We might think of this instance as having brought the issue into "critical mass" or in lay persons terms, being "the straw that broke the camel's back".

This whole thing reminds me of typing fast chatting with somebody, mis-keying a letter and having that person point out to you "HEY, YOU SPELLED 'SCIENTIST' WRONG. IT'S NOT SCTZIENTIST!"...

Oh man! Thank God you were here to set me strait! I was sliding down a slippery slope and it's as if you appeared as an Angel and saved my life!

As to nit picking, within the confines of this forum, i see it consistently taking form against me, "the outsider" but not against "insiders". Is your perspective on this to the contrary? I feel throughout many threads i am constantly making points that apply equally to the ai or to human enemy (unless i specifically point out otherwise) and then i am looked upon as if through an impervious impenetrable closed mindedness like "well your point only applies to the human enemy", when in fact this is simply not the case and anybody paying attention would clearly see this. The 0% science rate is one perfect example in a sea of others. I say again, in what way does that apply only to the human enemy? If we are not coexisting in alternate universes, how can it be that anybody would not see this?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

The first paragraph was meant to be a joke. I was suggesting that those who play against computers (as opposed to humans, like yourself) take on the computeristic trait of dealing poorly with omissions and ambiguity. Sort of like how if you live with someone long enough you take on some of their characteristics. Perhaps I should have used a smilie or something to indicate it wasn't meant to be taken seriously; my apologies.

The second paragraph was meant to give a little insight into the matter.

It is natural to notice the comments directed towards yourself a little more than those directed towards other people when it comes to nit picky things; after all people (or at least myself, I could be unique in this regard but I don't think so) are more concerned with what others think of them, than what others might think of a third party. Reply posts are the only way to guage what others think of our opinions here, so what was intended as a clarification or addition (and read as such by a third party) might be taken as criticism by the first poster. All of this is natural simply because we experience our lives directly but experience the lives of others only indirectly.

I, personally, am not out to pick apart your posts any more than I am anyone else's. Of course, having knowledge only of my own thoughts, I can say nothing for others.

 

[WildPony]

The first paragraph was meant to be a joke. I was suggesting that those who play against computers (as opposed to humans, like yourself) take on the computeristic trait of dealing poorly with omissions and ambiguity. Sort of like how if you live with someone long enough you take on some of their characteristics. Perhaps I should have used a smilie or something to indicate it wasn't meant to be taken seriously; my apologies."

haha! i re-read your first paragraph knowing you were joking and it looks completely different . No apology necessary, but thanks... and i like your analogy

"The second paragraph was meant to give a little insight into the matter.

"It is natural to notice the comments directed towards yourself a little more than those directed towards other people when it comes to nit picky things; ..............."

Well towards Hugo, i agree it was intended as constructive feedback. But if you go back and read Ace's specific wording, i believe there was what seems to have been an eagerness to supposedly set "me" strait, not just to help out Hugo who i must have left in a terribly confused and disoriented state by not clarifying about the scientist.

Hugo was talking about science rates, and i directly responded to that by saying with a super trade game in place, that rate could be set to zero and he could still get a tech every turn. It's a general statement, in no way meant to be "all encompassing". Nobody asked me about scientists, so in this case i didn't include that in my answer. My contention that the luxury % can be set to 0 was therefore 100% accurate. Needing a scientist is a closely related but separate and additional issue. But Ace boldly responded to my statement which was specific to the 'lux rate" by saying, "That is not quite accurate".

Unless his intention was otherwise, it wouldn't have been hard to word that with the slightest adjustment to remove what is clearly an attempt to contradict my point. Had you or Magic Gorter or Ali, or Peaster or... oh i don't know, let's say Starlifter... had made the identical comment i made, verbatim, i have a strong feeling his response would have come out differently, with "an ounce of respect" in his tone. If he had any interest in treating me with an ounce of respect, his statement would have been mitigated. I base this on recurring experiences which have grown tiresome. I say again, it's been a repeated rubbing of the skin and now that skin has gone raw. .

"I, personally, am not out to pick apart your posts any more than I am anyone else's. Of course, having knowledge only of my own thoughts, I can say nothing for others."

Actually you Professor Garfield are not, i know this. Thanks