How Do You Fogbust, Dammit?

[Izmir Stinger]

There is no disagreement at all.
Fog is irrelevant, barbs can't spawn near units. (2-tile radius, as mentioned in this thread)

Yeah, it isn't controversial at all. However, the "spawnbusting" knowledge was only discovered about a year ago, right? Lots of people just don't know about it yet and are stuck in the old "fogbusting" mindset.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Fogbust *is* true for culture borders, just not units. Units get spawnbust.

Eventually you want to be using culture rather than units for most locations, however, so it's important to know the difference.

 

[r_rolo1]

Fogbust *is* true for culture borders, just not units. Units get spawnbust.

As long as we are talking about barb units, that is. Barb cities are true to the ingame tip and can spawn everywhere that is not being fogbusted, even in places where barb units can't spawn...

Just to add to the confusion

 

[mariogreymist]

Are there factors that negate the 5x5 radius? I've had two barbarian cities spawn within two squares of fogbusting units. The first was in a chosen location, defended by archers and near a few immortals...so no problem. But there is another now, and I don't know why.

In the screenshot: The city, and both those immortals in place (and had been for some time) when that city spawned. WTH?

EDIT: oh...I should have read the preceding post. Well, at least we now have demonstrable proof of the truthiness of r rolo1's observation.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

As long as we are talking about barb units, that is. Barb cities are true to the ingame tip and can spawn everywhere that is not being fogbusted, even in places where barb units can't spawn...

Just to add to the confusion

Further adding to the confusion is that you can subsequently move AWAY from them, as the archers in them will themselves spawnbust .

 

[kossin]

edited out

 

[RD-BH]

My 2 cents ...

... Having endured the confusion and frustration of barbs in immortal games, I discovered my own problem was one of timidity. Once I stopped holding back, and I went all out to spawn bust and explore; I found the barbs became less of a problem and more the *occasional* annoyance.

 

[Nares]

I have BUG mod but where is the feature to reveal where the barbs won't spawn?

The no-spawn zone has the same dimensions as the city BFC.

Again, I do believe I've seen them enter before that.

They'll enter if there's a worker to nab, but otherwise they'll wander around out in the fog.

 

[vicawoo]

Two warriors or one archer is sufficiently safe to fogbust/escort your settler to a close location. If you decide to skimp and only get one warrior, and it dies, well, you have to build/chop another one.

Barracks do not help fogbust, whereas 3 warriors will. An unfortified warrior in a wooded area will have slightly <50% survival rate to an archer. A fortified one, or with woodsman 1 or on a hill will usually survive, but expect to have to replace it. one with +50% (woodsman 2, fortified on a hill, woodsman 1/hill, etc) is pretty safe.

The idea behind successful fogbusting is to seal off smaller areas where barbs could annoyingly spawn, then create a spread out wall of fogbusters facing the unknown areas. If there's too much space to cover, then get a strategic resource.

 

[Oggums]

The idea behind successful fogbusting is to seal off smaller areas where barbs could annoyingly spawn, then create a spread out wall of fogbusters facing the unknown areas. If there's too much space to cover, then get a strategic resource.

Agree with everything Vic said but just want to add that if there's a lot of room to expand, and if I don't have a resource in BFC or can't/don't want to place a city on top of a nearby resource, I'll go with Archery. It's generally quicker than mining+roading a resource. I've had too many times on Immortal where I've just hooked up copper in my second city, only to have barbs enter and pillage it before I can produce enough axes.

 

[NihilZero]

I seem to have improved quite a bit thanks to this thread and some practice. Still have some disasters though:

This was one of those situations where the capital is surrounded by desert, requiring the settler to travel further than is really safe to get the second city up. Sad really, it was a nice looking start.

Agree with everything Vic said but just want to add that if there's a lot of room to expand, and if I don't have a resource in BFC or can't/don't want to place a city on top of a nearby resource, I'll go with Archery. It's generally quicker than mining+roading a resource. I've had too many times on Immortal where I've just hooked up copper in my second city, only to have barbs enter and pillage it before I can produce enough axes.

I hate teching archery. On Immortal, I find that if I don't get Alphabet ASAP and trade it out to backfill I usually have no hope of catching up before it's too late. Archery is something that you can pick up later so easily (often for nothing if you have a pleased neighbour) that to slow down the race to Alphabet by teching it is a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[CarlH]

I hate teching archery. On Immortal, I find that if I don't get Alphabet ASAP and trade it out to backfill I usually have no hope of catching up before it's too late. Archery is something that you can pick up later so easily (often for nothing if you have a pleased neighbour) that to slow down the race to Alphabet by teching it is a bitter pill to swallow.

I think that is why most people go for aesthetics and use that as trade bait. Most AIs on immortal do not prioritise Aesthetics and, with a couple of turns of research into alphabet, you can usually trade aesthetics for alpha, IW and someimtes math.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Starts that require archery usually involve enough land that you can afford a slightly reduced early tech output.

 

[beestar]

Someone else in the 'I hate teching Archery on Immortal' camp! I wrote something eerily identical a few weeks ago.

Winning Alphabet first is nice to do that first round of tech swapping before the other AIs, but you don't actually need to own Alphabet if the other AI's have it. You just need a relatively rare, high value tech, and you can easily leverage that to pick up all the other cheap techs you need. That high value tech could be Aesthetics, or Code of Laws from the Oracle, etc.

 

[mariogreymist]

Currency and MC also make excellent trade bait. I've managed to lead in tech early (up to emperor) by going from monarchy to a currency beeline, then popping a GM from the glh for MC. Trading either of those two techs around, it's not hard to end up with everything anyone is willing to trade. In any start with more than two opponents on a continent, someone will tech alpha fairly early and trade it off for a roughly equal value tech if you have a monopoly on the trade bait.

It's funny...whenever I have a monopoly on alpha, I hold on to it like a drunk with a bottle. Being the only one who can trade is a huge advantage, but one AIs seem to vastly undervalue. While currency, CoL, Aesthetics and MC are all key gateways to lines of research, wonders and new tactics, none is a gateway the way alpha is. This has created a strange tendency...because I value alpha so much more than the AIs, I almost never research it myself.

The other tech that AIs seem to undervalue the power of a monopoly with is Scientific Method (oil location, prereq for 2 GP granting techs). But that's starting to ramble off topic, so I'll shut up now.

 

[kivanc]

barbarians are good. it has some advantages if played correctly and with a little chance.
pre-chopping the great wall is the easiest way and it is not so hard to get the wonder even in deity and large world which has 8AIs.

if you have failed tgw, then you need to rex more. no barbs will appear within your cultural borders anyway, they come from outside. so 2chariots or a woodsman II melees helps much to travel just outside borders. if he sees 3 swords coming, just move garrisons to that border side of the state and so on.

the best issue with barbs is that you get free cities and free workers. sometimes, when i don't want to increase maintenance, i leave a barb city and get it later. in that period it grows anyway.

barbs kill or at least disturb AIs as well.
but the main problem of barbs is about fishing boats.

 

[budweiser]

Having mastered the art of spawnbusting, the astute player can often times, having gained knowledge of the lay of the land, 'leave open' some land in hopes of encouraging a friendly barb tribe or two to take up residence, work a few farms, make a few workers and go about amassing a tidy sum of gold. These new settlements also tend to keep out the more civilized riff-raff one encounter in a game. The astute player can then 'visit' his new neighbor a short time later and show them his shiny new short stack of swords.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, spawnbusting doesn't block cities from forming in the fog so that's a plus. You can even use the cities themselves to spawnbust if they form.

 

[NihilZero]

Indeed, barb blocker cities are a friend and a companion (as Tom Waits might observe). Care must be taken not to stand too close lest the timid barb workers take fright and neglect to build nice towns, mines and roads to be captured later.

On the other hand, sometimes they form where you don't want them to, but then I am a novice at this stuff. The idea of encouraging the barbs to settle in useful places is pretty cool.

Incidentally, I'll be impressed if anybody can post a screenshot of a barb-trashed city earlier than mine above. Turn 36 is not too shabby if you ask me.

 

[jauggy]

I hate barb galleys. I often ignore seafood city locations and go for other sites instead till I can build triremes. Sometimes the barb galley chases the AI work boat around your whole continent eventually pillaging all your resources.