How do you transform a warmongering strategy once war is no longer feasible

[kurdi]

This thread is to pose the following question: how do you transform a warmongering strategy once war is no longer feasible.

After winning 4 games on Monarch (2 culture+2 time wins), I tried my hand at emperor for 6 (aborted) games unsuccessfully. Eventually, I went for a warmongering strategy using the infamous Roman war machine (described in a thread on these forums).

It seems that on Emperor the AI really techs up quickly and builds dreaded longbowmen much faster than on Monarch. To speed up my military campaign I chop-rushed settlers from the get go, built up my 4 Praetorian city-factories, and was able to destroy the English and half of the German empire before finally Bismark (and everyone else) discovered feudalism and piled up Longbowmen, and my expansion seems to have come to an end.

I now have 14 cities, a good 6 more than any AI civ known to me (Mongols), but I feel I am in SERIOUS danger. My question(s) are:

- What is the best way to defend my empire now that AI civs (including Mongols) are producing mideaval units? Should I keep pumping out Praetorians and amassing them? I will probably not catch up in tech anytime soon.

-What is the best way to build up my economy? I have a lot of resources in my lands but for most do not have the techs required to build the improvements to extract them. I dont have any cities that have founded religions.

- What is the way to grow my populations, esp. as I have serious happiness bottlenecks and no known AI civs have luxuries that I could trade for.

- What path to take to catch up in tech? I am building libraries and monasteries everywhere, but will probably not have any tech anybody else wants for a long time, and the AI acts as one huge tech conglomorate. At 20% research, I am, in fact, still 16 turns away from Alphabet and I dont even have caste system.

After a seemingly successful military campaign and so much land and resources it seems odd to see that, in fact, there seems to be little I can do but watch my empire be taken apart by smaller AI civs who are nonetheless so much more advanced in tech. Any thoughts?

 

[grelar]

I'm still learning this game and have yet to play a game over Noble, but it seems to me that you simply overextended yourself. I'd keep a couple cities on production and change everything else over to commerce if possible. Stop your city growth and build cottages. I don't see how you're ever going to catch up if you don't. You say you don't have a holy city, so adopt a powerful neighbor's religion to get them in good standing. You may want to toy with the idea of giving up a city or two also. One thing is for sure, it will take you a long time to catch up tech-wise. Next game, you may want to consider pillaging and razing more cities instead of taking them over. It will keep your empire smaller while allowing you to continue warmongering since you won't be falling as far behind on the tech tree. I could be full of it though since I'm no expert. Good luck

 

[kurdi]

Thx Grelar... good ideas there I guess I'll just go for all out cottage spam and switch some cities' production to commerce, if in fact I can do that without having to research some tech first.

 

[Scalefang]

Well, first off, congratualations conquering hero, now you just need to hold onto your booty.

One very important question: What is the relationship between your score, the number two score, and your military. For example let's say you have 1300 and your nearest opponent has 800, yet your military is as same as the guy who has 500 points. You are going to be attacked by just about anyone aggresive who has about as much military as you. Which, on Emperor, could be just about anyone.

As Rome, you need courthouses in your recent aqcuisitions and your core has to fortify your exterior cities. Longbowmen aren't offensive, and your praetorians need only fear macemen, which by your post they don't have. Make sure you outer cities have a balanced defense (archer, spearmen, praetorian) so that you can defend and counter an opponents force.

Look for cities that would be good at science, floodplains, grasslands, cities with lots of luxury resources, and get the science in 'em. Look ahead and plan accordingly, got a city with cows, ivory and hills? It will probably be a nice production center.

Beyond this I can't reccommend much else, alot of this is learned on the job as it were.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well you need to improve science to catch up which means
1. improve scientific efficiency (libraries+monasteries) check
2. improve overall commerce (build cottages)
3. Decrease expenses (build courthouses)

Now #3 is out of your reach for a while if Alphabet is 16 turns away. So focus on #2

Don't worry about trading for techs with Alphabet, after all if They have it, you can trade with them, but you are apparently behind already [unless you know they don't have alphabet in which case going for that to trade away may be worth it], instead focus on the worker techs for your resources [unless you are talking about calendar+monarchy, get more basic worker techs first], get your economy going as soon as possible. Make those cottage improvements initially in your core.

To deal with population limits (from happiness) I'd suggest building Workers, especially in those cities that are well developed with buildings, in cities that are high population but not well developed in buildings....whip the buildings. Another option for the developed cities, once you have enough workers is to whip up your defensive military. You can whip some temples too.

For defense, its probably better to stick with the prats until you have pikemen, longbows, or horse archers. Give Them good promotions for your situation. Combat 1+2 for anti-pillage/cavalry, for city defense a mix of axe prats (with shock+C1) + shield prats (with cover+C1) maybe even a few med prats (med1+C1), as well as some Guerilla/Woodsman Prats for use where needed.

More important for defense will be to make friends, choose wisely, you want a friend you might be able to actually get, and who is either powerful or well liked, and then get their religion (which also helps the happiness).

Overall cottage spamming seems the best for now, as long as you can keep them from being pillaged you are ok.

PS to turn production into research you need Alphabet, to turn it into Gold you need Currency, (If you have Currency then it might be worth it once you seem somewhat stable, otherwise keep pumping out the units+cottages)

 

[Grogs]

I'm in a similar situation in my current (Emperor) game playing as the mongols. I built 2 cities, then discovered Napoleon was very close to me. I decided to take him out before he got axes/swords/horses and came for me. I built barracks and started spamming axes in my 2 cities, took a French city and did the same there, and now I'm wrapping up the war. Paris has the only iron remotely close to me, so I'll be keeping it (I've razed his other cities.)

Once I finish the war, I'll be essentially broke, maxed on happiness in all my cities, severely slumping research (those new civic costs hurt!) and with nothing particularly useful to build. I've got pretty much all the worker techs, plus mysticism and mining/BW/IW, so quite a ways from currency/CoL/anything else that's financially helpful. I'm going to try and turtle up with my 4 cities, spam lots of cottages, and see if I can get research up enough to pull myself out of the hole. Until then, I don't think I can support enough military to field another invasion. Hopefully, since my other 2 neighbors aren't aggressive (Cyrus and Victoria) I can make that happen before they get MA techs and start coming at me with crossbows/macemen/knights.

 

[Gato Loco]

I now have 14 cities, a good 6 more than any AI civ known to me (Mongols), but I feel I am in SERIOUS danger. My question(s) are:

- What is the best way to defend my empire now that AI civs (including Mongols) are producing mideaval units? Should I keep pumping out Praetorians and amassing them? I will probably not catch up in tech anytime soon.

Praetorians can hold their own in the early middle ages, but beware of macemen. Once they're in play they'll tear apart your praetorians, so you should keep some other units around to go after them, perhaps flanking-promoted Horse Archers, or elephants if you have them. Large reserves of catapults will also be necessary if you get invaded. But really, if you're at such a disadvantage, you should try to lay low. Adopt a politically powerful religion and try to cultivate your neighbors by gifting them your extra resources, or even better, gifting them an extra city that they want more than you do. Good relations won't prevent the AI from kicking you when you're down but as long as you have a decent army your friends won't stab you in the back. Also, once you have friends, get open borders with everyone and explore all their cities for the trade route income.

-What is the best way to build up my economy? I have a lot of resources in my lands but for most do not have the techs required to build the improvements to extract them. I dont have any cities that have founded religions.

As others have said, cottages are really the only way to go in the long run. Unless you're planning to win outright in the early game, you have to start some cottages early on, even if it means sacrificing military production. Getting calendar can compensate somewhat if you have lots of appropriate luxuries. In the future, if you're a warmonger, try to go for a holy city in your early campaign. It's not always feasible but you can pull it off you'll have a much easier time of it.

- What is the way to grow my populations, esp. as I have serious happiness bottlenecks and no known AI civs have luxuries that I could trade for.

Since you probably have a lot of military units, I'd suggest trying to get Monarchy and adopting hereditary rule for the military police. Also spread as many religions as possible in your cities so you can build temples.

- What path to take to catch up in tech? I am building libraries and monasteries everywhere, but will probably not have any tech anybody else wants for a long time, and the AI acts as one huge tech conglomorate. At 20% research, I am, in fact, still 16 turns away from Alphabet and I dont even have caste system.

The biggest problem here is your upkeep cost. You'll just have to put up with the low tech pace until:
1)You get CoL and start building courthouses
2)You get Calendar and start exploiting silk/dye/spices
3)Your cottages mature
4)You get Currency for the extra trade routes and markets.
5)You raze a barbarian city and the loot lets you run higher science for a bit

As you can see, there are certain specific techs needed to get your economy going. Even warmongers have to make sure they get these techs in a timely fashion.

For now, 5) is your best short-term bet. You should also keep an eye out for good military opportunities. If another civ is being stomped you can join the war. You'll get a relation boost from your new allies and the possibility of loot from razing/pillaging. Just choose your fights very carefully.

After a seemingly successful military campaign and so much land and resources it seems odd to see that, in fact, there seems to be little I can do but watch my empire be taken apart by smaller AI civs who are nonetheless so much more advanced in tech. Any thoughts?

Know when to stop. A sufficiently crippled enemy isn't much more dangerous than a dead one. There's a point in any early campaign where the investment starts to exceed the reward. That's the point where you have to accept a tech or two in exchange for peace and then go home. In any case, good luck building your empire.

 

[Gato Loco]

I now have 14 cities, a good 6 more than any AI civ known to me (Mongols), but I feel I am in SERIOUS danger. My question(s) are:

- What is the best way to defend my empire now that AI civs (including Mongols) are producing mideaval units? Should I keep pumping out Praetorians and amassing them? I will probably not catch up in tech anytime soon.

Praetorians can hold their own in the early middle ages, but beware of macemen. Once they're in play they'll tear apart your praetorians, so you should keep some other units around to go after them, perhaps flanking-promoted Horse Archers, or elephants if you have them. Large reserves of catapults will also be necessary if you get invaded. But really, if you're at such a disadvantage, you should try to lay low. Adopt a politically powerful religion and try to cultivate your neighbors by gifting them your extra resources, or even better, gifting them an extra city that they want more than you do. Good relations won't prevent the AI from kicking you when you're down but as long as you have a decent army your friends won't stab you in the back. Also, once you have friends, get open borders with everyone and explore all their cities for the trade route income.

-What is the best way to build up my economy? I have a lot of resources in my lands but for most do not have the techs required to build the improvements to extract them. I dont have any cities that have founded religions.

As others have said, cottages are really the only way to go in the long run. Unless you're planning to win outright in the early game, you have to start some cottages early on, even if it means sacrificing military production. Getting calendar can compensate somewhat if you have lots of appropriate luxuries. In the future, if you're a warmonger, try to go for a holy city in your early campaign. It's not always feasible but you can pull it off you'll have a much easier time of it.

- What is the way to grow my populations, esp. as I have serious happiness bottlenecks and no known AI civs have luxuries that I could trade for.

Since you probably have a lot of military units, I'd suggest trying to get Monarchy and adopting hereditary rule for the military police. Also spread as many religions as possible in your cities so you can build temples.

- What path to take to catch up in tech? I am building libraries and monasteries everywhere, but will probably not have any tech anybody else wants for a long time, and the AI acts as one huge tech conglomorate. At 20% research, I am, in fact, still 16 turns away from Alphabet and I dont even have caste system.

The biggest problem here is your upkeep cost. You'll just have to put up with the low tech pace until:
1)You get CoL and start building courthouses
2)You get Calendar and start exploiting silk/dye/spices
3)Your cottages mature
4)You get Currency for the extra trade routes and markets.
5)You raze a barbarian city and the loot lets you run higher science for a bit

As you can see, there are certain specific techs needed to get your economy going. Even warmongers have to make sure they get these techs in a timely fashion.

For now, 5) is your best short-term bet. You should also keep an eye out for good military opportunities. If another civ is being stomped you can join the war. You'll get a relation boost from your new allies and the possibility of loot from razing/pillaging. Just choose your fights very carefully.

After a seemingly successful military campaign and so much land and resources it seems odd to see that, in fact, there seems to be little I can do but watch my empire be taken apart by smaller AI civs who are nonetheless so much more advanced in tech. Any thoughts?

Know when to stop. A sufficiently crippled enemy isn't much more dangerous than a dead one. There's a point in any early campaign where the investment starts to exceed the reward. That's the point where you have to accept a tech or two in exchange for peace and then go home. In any case, good luck building your empire.

 

[kb2tvl]

This thread is to pose the following question: how do you transform a warmongering strategy once war is no longer feasible.


I now have 14 cities, a good 6 more than any AI civ known to me (Mongols), but I feel I am in SERIOUS danger. My question(s) are:

- What is the best way to defend my empire now that AI civs (including Mongols) are producing mideaval units? Should I keep pumping out Praetorians and amassing them? I will probably not catch up in tech anytime soon.

-What is the best way to build up my economy? I have a lot of resources in my lands but for most do not have the techs required to build the improvements to extract them. I dont have any cities that have founded religions.

- What is the way to grow my populations, esp. as I have serious happiness bottlenecks and no known AI civs have luxuries that I could trade for.

- What path to take to catch up in tech? I am building libraries and monasteries everywhere, but will probably not have any tech anybody else wants for a long time, and the AI acts as one huge tech conglomorate. At 20% research, I am, in fact, still 16 turns away from Alphabet and I dont even have caste system.

After a seemingly successful military campaign and so much land and resources it seems odd to see that, in fact, there seems to be little I can do but watch my empire be taken apart by smaller AI civs who are nonetheless so much more advanced in tech. Any thoughts?

-Look at your score graph and look at your power graph. If both graphs are porportional or if you have a larger bar on the power graph... you are ok. You have to worry about being attacked if your power graph gets too small.

-to build up your cash flow, you need cottages. I build 1 per 6 population and add more latter. Next you need court houses, Forbidden palace and markets.

-You want to limit your population if you have unhappiness. You can research drama and run cash luxaries. 20% luxaries should be fine to grow your population.

Are you currently at war? If you are not at war, you can build one building and then one military unit. Libraries are good start and you may be surprised how fast you catch up.

PS you can use slavery to population rush buildings. That helps keep the population down.

 

[kurdi]

Thanks guys... I think I'm in a relatively good position now; here's what I did:

- After getting alphabet, I stopped most all production in all my cities and produced research until I got code of laws
- Having so much land, I realized that my newly acquired cities also had a lot of forests. Since the Romans have a +2 health because of the expansionist trait, I decided I could do without forests and chop rushed courthouses, libraries, and monasteries everywhere I could. This was instrumental, and pretty much brought my economy out of the critical stage, I think. It also laid some good ground for scientific research capacity.
- Next I went for Feudalism, and now I'm amassing longbowmen alongside my many paetorians.

My neighbors however have knights, macemen and crossbowmen and musketmen. One of them (China) has riflemen as well. They have built every imaginable wonder while I am slowly catching up in tech. Thankfully (and unbelievably in Emperor, I think) nobody has attacked me yet; in fact, all of the powerful civs next to mine are "pleased" with me, which is good I guess but of course at the end of the day means precious little. I am simply piling up units in my border cities and hoping for the best.

Because I have so many cities, I think that I *will* catch up in tech at some point and possibly even surge ahead. I had a few lucky breaks when a great scientist popped up and gave me philosphy, and I was able to trade that with one AI civ for 3 techs. Also kublai of the mongols wanted me to switch to a certain civic, which I did. In the same interaction I asked him to give me mathmatics, and he did!!! A few more breaks like this and my tech situation should be reltively ok...

The question remains: how to win. If all goes well, I think I will just have to start a war in the modern age, take over enough territory, perhaps with some wonders, to end up with the most points for a time based victory (i switch off space victory condition in my games -- no, I have no qualms about it whatsoever).

Thanks for everyone for your input. Any other input you have would be extremely appreciated

 

[Oggums]

To me, the important techs to shoot for during an ancient war are Code of Laws, Construction and Monarchy. Swords and Catapults are fine vs. Longbows, once you have an army of city raiders. Caste System, Hereditary Rule and Courthouses help with the costs of all the cities.

What i do is set my capital city up to grow as large as my health resources will allow and build every building I can, then keep them happy with military. The capital also gets cottages early. The 2-3 other initial cities primarily pump out units, but the capital gets to grow.

Currency is also important, but not before Code of Laws. With Caste System, rather than using cottages for early warmongering, try farms and specialists. Feel free to drop your slider to 0% if you have to and use a scientist or two in your newer cities, while they build courthouses. One scientist in 10 cities is a lot more beakers for the early game than you'd ever get out of fresh cottages. You'll also get a couple of great scientists, which you can use in your capital. Build an academy first, then start adding scientists to the city.

I'll switch to merchants eventually after a city has courthouses, or if I'm still flat broke at 0%. You can balance your slider with merchants/scientists so you get the most beakers without going broke. Once you get a couple great merchants, which I also add to my capital, you can start raising your slider back up past 50% again.

But promoted swords (especially Praets) and catapults are fine for taking cities, even up to muskets, as long as you have an escort to get them to the city walls alive, and use enough suicide cats. I escort with crossbows (and pikes) as soon as I can, although I'm not sure how you keep Praets alive since they start overpowered and will take the first hits anyway...