How does forest growth work?

[sampsa]

My challenge is to win with this strategy. It's like a different difficulty level. To win with a different style.

Of course it's like a different difficulty level, if it's making the game harder, and bad plays tend to make the game harder. Just as a reminder, earlier you said

I really don't like the total-chop strategy, I'd say it's wrong.

which implies "total-chop" a bad strategy. Unless you meant it's wrong in some other sense to chop wood in a computer game.

 

[Max Duke]

Of course it's like a different difficulty level, if it's making the game harder, and bad plays tend to make the game harder. Just as a reminder, earlier you said

which implies "total-chop" a bad strategy. Unless you meant it's wrong in some other sense to chop wood in a computer game.

It's wrong if you want some forests in the late-game, since you cannot build forests.
I prefer to spare some forests, that makes the game more difficult of course, but you're rewarded later when you get Repl.Parts. You must also make different researches, that's another oddity.
In the end you prefer to play Deity, but you're playing the most easy way to win.
Instead someone might play Monarch but with personal challenges, in a personal scenario.

 

[pi-r8]

I prefer to spare some forests, that makes the game more difficult of course, but you're rewarded later when you get Repl.Parts.

The thing is that even after you get replaceable parts, lumbermills just aren't very good.
+1 , or +2 after railroad. Compare that to a mine: +2 /+3 , or a workshop with state property: +3 or +4 .

edit: the lumbermill also gets +1 from a forest, so it's just equal to a mine, except without the chance to pop a metal.

The only thing the forest/lumbermill offers is a small health bonus, which usually isn't worth it. So not only do you miss out on the hammers from chopping, you also get a worse tile improvement. It's worse in the short term, worse in the long term.

 

[sampsa]

It's wrong if you want some forests in the late-game, since you cannot build forests.
I prefer to spare some forests, that makes the game more difficult of course, but you're rewarded later when you get Repl.Parts. You must also make different researches, that's another challenge/difficulty.
In the end you prefer to play Deity, but playing the most easy way to win.

One simple question. Are you still saying it's a bad strategy to chop all or not?

You are correct in your assumption that I don't care about self-imposed "challenges" and if I did, it wouldn't cross my mind to write that someone not adhering to my made up challenge is playing wrong.

 

[Max Duke]

One simple question. Are you still saying it's a bad strategy to chop all or not?

You are correct in your assumption that I don't care about self-imposed "challenges" and if I did, it wouldn't cross my mind to write that someone not adhering to my made up challenge is playing wrong.

When you have planned to build a Wonder in a given city that has some forests are you going to chop them off before starting the Wonder, or will you wait?
I guess you will wait to chop. So you're not a total-chopper either. Also, chop forests when you're going to discover Mathematics? Are you going to chop or will you wait?
I just apply this concept in a larger scale, I spare some forests for when I will need them. I chop some, and I have some regrowth.
My statement was kinda provocative but yes I think that total chopping is wrong, unless you are in a hurry and being defeated in a war.

 

[Max Duke]

The thing is that even after you get replaceable parts, lumbermills just aren't very good.
+1 , or +2 after railroad. Compare that to a mine: +2 /+3 , or a workshop with state property: +3 or +4 .

edit: the lumbermill also gets +1 from a forest, so it's just equal to a mine, except without the chance to pop a metal.

The only thing the forest/lumbermill offers is a small health bonus, which usually isn't worth it. So not only do you miss out on the hammers from chopping, you also get a worse tile improvement. It's worse in the short term, worse in the long term.

Lumbermill n plains 1 3 but on grass you have 2 2 (+1 with railroad)
State Property gives +1 for Watermills and Workshop, no .
So Lumbermill is the best improvement when you lack food in a city and want hammers.
It's only matched by Watermill, but you need a river.

 

[pi-r8]

Lumbermill on a plains forest flatland with railroad: 1 4
workshop on a plains flatland with state property, guilds and chemistry: 1 4
^ with caste system: 1 5
So when do you benefit from the lumbermill?

 

[Nogbadthebad]

Lumbermill n plains 1 3 but on grass you have 2 2 (+1 with railroad)
State Property gives +1 for Watermills and Workshop, no .
So Lumbermill is the best improvement when you lack food in a city and want hammers.
It's only matched by Watermill, but you need a river.

I believe the argument has just come full circle: if you want hammers in a city- chop the forest.

Whilst you're at it, whip away all the population working unimproved tiles, you have lots of them- turn them into production. Probably use some of this to produce more workers for more chopping. You are playing an expansive leader and your land is underimproved for T300 let alone T820.
Why are you taking 2 turns for economics when you could tech to it immediately? You could get to it in 1 turn and switch to free market immediately as Issy is spiritual. This will improve your economy straight away.
A bit of guesswork now: You are in two wars, get out of one and then win the other, this will stop you having to spend all your money pointlessly upgrading units. You have pyramids- chop/whip enough units with police state then switch to rep and tech to at least parity- you are still producing medieval units at T820 and said you are getting attacked by cavalry and tanks?

Just a few ideas from a noob based on one screenshot. Let me know if I'm wrong.

PS is that a GProphet for your Hindu shrine? Tell him he's late.

 

[Lennier]

Now I play marathon in large maps at monarch level.
By the way Im not a noob, I used to play multiplayer 20yrs ago with the top players in those great 4v4 inland sea and have won many games .

Civ IV was released on October 25, 2005, a bit less than 15 years ago. You could not have played multiplayer 20 years ago. At least not Civ IV multiplayer, but experience playing Command and Conquer multiplayer (released in 1995) would not be applicable to Civ IV, either multi or single player. (And Civ III has significantly different mechanics, so Civ III multiplayer wouldn't be applicable either.)

I generally play Emperor/Huge/Marathon, so I'm not the best player out there. But my games are generally in the bag (or lost) long before RR. How best to protect your improvements from marauding cavalry and tanks? Destroy the AI's stack and take its cities.

 

[Max Duke]

I believe the argument has just come full circle: if you want hammers in a city- chop the forest.

Whilst you're at it, whip away all the population working unimproved tiles, you have lots of them- turn them into production. Probably use some of this to produce more workers for more chopping. You are playing an expansive leader and your land is underimproved for T300 let alone T820.

I produced very few workers in this game but I got many in wars (defeated Ragnar).
I dont see how chopping to have a worker is useful, for me it's a waste if you dont need more workers.
I have so many forests in those screenshots because about 7 of those have been regrown up: some had been chopped in the past. Surely I might chop them now, as I decide where to build Ironworks - that will speed it up, and I couldnt speed it up without forests and those cities have about +4 health so they are at health limit with factory.

Why are you taking 2 turns for economics when you could tech to it immediately? You could get to it in 1 turn and switch to free market immediately as Issy is spiritual. This will improve your economy straight away.

I was temporarly down on research (10%) to Not discover Economics so soon, since I have Citadels, I'm producing 3* Cannons: that's just timed to have some 3* cannons completed. Plus I need gold for upgrades and to complete granaries and forges for the new cities (having Univ Suffr).

A bit of guesswork now: You are in two wars, get out of one and then win the other, this will stop you having to spend all your money pointlessly upgrading units. You have pyramids- chop/whip enough units with police state then switch to rep and tech to at least parity- you are still producing medieval units at T820 and said you are getting attacked by cavalry and tanks?

I'm not attacked by tanks yet, Charlemagne has Riflemen, neither Grenadiers.
I was on Representation before, but now being at war I want the +1 hammer from cities. I produce crossbows to upgrade them into MGs with CityGarrison2, or GuerrillaII, or WoodsmanII (I have only 1 MG Woody2 in the end, but I have some grenadier W2 that can become MGs).
Pikemen to have disposable units vs Cavalry, and to have future City Raiders Infantry.

Just a few ideas from a noob based on one screenshot. Let me know if I'm wrong.

PS is that a GProphet for your Hindu shrine? Tell him he's late.

I have the Kashi Vishwanath, he's waiting to start a golden age (I'm waiting to use one Engeneer since I'm scared that he will be taken for the GA.)

 

[Max Duke]

Civ IV was released on October 25, 2005, a bit less than 15 years ago. You could not have played multiplayer 20 years ago. At least not Civ IV multiplayer, but experience playing Command and Conquer multiplayer (released in 1995) would not be applicable to Civ IV, either multi or single player. (And Civ III has significantly different mechanics, so Civ III multiplayer wouldn't be applicable either.)

I generally play Emperor/Huge/Marathon, so I'm not the best player out there. But my games are generally in the bag (or lost) long before RR. How best to protect your improvements from marauding cavalry and tanks? Destroy the AI's stack and take its cities.

Yeah, I said 20years but I didnt recall well. I played MP till the end of the lobby.
If you're militarly inferior you have to force enemy's stacks to attack you into well defended tiles: a city on grassland or plains whith the defences torn down is worse than a forest or hill: have you a hill adjacent to your city on grass where the enemy stack settles to bombard it? You gotta conquer that hill and defend that, not the city.
Have a forest outpost on the path of oncoming stacks? Defend that, not the next city, preventing your land to be invaded: it's the same when you have raging barbs: kill em before they come to destroy your improvements.

 

[rah]

I'm waiting to use one Engeneer since I'm scared that he will be taken for the GA

Confused. are you not aware how to select which GPs will be used for the GA?

 

[Max Duke]

Confused. are you not aware how to select which GPs will be used for the GA?

Well, seems that posting in this form is helpful ^^. No, I didn't consider to stack 2 GP and click on GA. I used to pick one and letting AI to take random the other ones :facepalm:

 

[Max Duke]

I'm wondering if it's possible to force forests to grow certain tiles/if it's worth it to leave unimproved tiles near your capital so that forests may grow there. Or is that just not worth it?

2 forests = +1 (including forest with improvements)

Some cities with forests:

The two forests on grassland near the city are regrown ones, plus two on the left. Now I can chop them to hurry Ironworks.
I will keep enough forests to have health. This would be also a good city for National Park, eventually with 8 (eight) specialists.



This city has National Park + Industrial Park (I can have 5 Engeneers there).



This one is a 7-lumbermills city.

 

[Windsor]

My MP-experience is that chopping forest is even more important than in SP. You don't want an invading human to have a good defensive tile next to your city. And you never want to just bunker down on a tile in your own territory. The enemy will either ignore you or slaughter you with siege. The way to defend is by using the mobility roads provide.

Lumbermills are nice improvement when they finally arrive and have their railroad bonus, but even then they're just one of several options. That's pretty insane given the opportunity cost. State Property needs a major nerf and Lumbermills needs some extra situational civic/building dependent bonuses.

 

[Nogbadthebad]

I produced very few workers in this game but I got many in wars (defeated Ragnar).
I dont see how chopping to have a worker is useful, for me it's a waste if you dont need more workers.

You do need workers. In your first screenshot yesterday you had 6 unimproved tiles in your capital, you were working at least 3 of them. Even if you just wanted lumbermills on them, that would be 66 worker turns (16 for lumbermill+6 for RR on marathon speed x3tiles) that you are needing in your capital. Since Bureaucracy will have been the most powerful legal civic available for many hundreds of turns and it gives +50% hammers (and commerce) in you cap this is a lot of free production you are missing out on in your capital. So you are building your lumbermills far too slowly in your most important city. The quickest way to rectify this is is by chopping workers out. Lumbermills do not grow on trees.

The two forests on grassland near the city are regrown ones, plus two on the left. Now I can chop them to hurry Ironworks.
I will keep enough forests to have health. This would be also a good city for National Park, eventually with 8 (eight) specialists.

FYI- National Park is a really bad idea in your Ironworks city. NP removes access to coal in the city it is in, coal gives +50% hammers in your IW city. The two do not go together.

If you're militarly inferior you have to force enemy's stacks to attack you into well defended tiles: a city on grassland or plains whith the defences torn down is worse than a forest or hill: have you a hill adjacent to your city on grass where the enemy stack settles to bombard it? You gotta conquer that hill and defend that, not the city.

You did not learn this tactic in MP as any human player would ignore your hill, capture the city, raze it and move on leaving your expensive upgraded unit sitting on its hill looking foolish. From what I know of how the civ4 AI operates it will not behave as you describe either, so this is all just wishful thinking on your part. If you are militarily inferior you have to not be in the war.

For someone who has talked so much about preserving your resources you are being extremely wasteful of them. You have are fighting against stacks of rifles and cavs with pikes and grenadiers, neither of which come close to being able to attack with winning odds. So you are losing. You are countering this by spending huge amounts of resources on MG which can only defend one tile, you are then defending your least valuable tiles. You have researched RR, MilSci and are doing your best to avoid researching economics. You could have gone rifling and assembly line and be shredding charlie with infantry. You wouldn't be able to put RR on your lumbermills but since you haven't even built these yet this does not matter.

Back to the original thread, you could also have just chopped everything, made it to state property and be running workshops.

 

[shakabrade]

2 forests = +1 (including forest with improvements)

What do you need +7 health in Zaragoza for? You can chop 14 forests and stay healthy. I am adding oil to the fire just to reinforce the stance that you have incredible amount to learn about Civ 4 and strategies in general (and RL economy) in order for any new players coming to seek knowledge on the S&T to know that chopping the forests is way to go and that immediate benefits >>>>>>> subpar tile improvement when the game should be in the bag anyway.
There is actually a subforum more oriented on roleplaying and sandboxing - Stories and Tales. BTW, I also used to play like you while I was in high school, almost no chops and no whips due to moral reasons. Was stuck at Monarch/Emperor on Epic speed (but was comfortable with Marathon Deity).

N.B., chops are even better on Marathon, worker turn lost entering the forest hurt you 1/3 as much as on normal speed and if you chop into military units, the benefit is incredible to the point of broken mechanics, especially so if you have any military tech lead. You can basically own everyone in the BCs. And you should because it is easy. If you are not, then learn to do it.

 

[Max Duke]

My MP-experience is that chopping forest is even more important than in SP. You don't want an invading human to have a good defensive tile next to your city. And you never want to just bunker down on a tile in your own territory. The enemy will either ignore you or slaughter you with siege. The way to defend is by using the mobility roads provide.

Lumbermills are nice improvement when they finally arrive and have their railroad bonus, but even then they're just one of several options. That's pretty insane given the opportunity cost. State Property needs a major nerf and Lumbermills needs some extra situational civic/building dependent bonuses.

I don't let forests adjacent to my frontline cities.
Among the several options it's the only one that gives 2 food + 2 hammers apart the windmill on hill/grassland (after Rep.Parts), but you will have a mine there usually. Then with railroad 2F + 3H is only matched by watermill. Cities without hills and no river need lumbermills, also cities without scarce food since you cant have mines and food surplus.

 

[Max Duke]

You do need workers. In your first screenshot yesterday you had 6 unimproved tiles in your capital, you were working at least 3 of them. Even if you just wanted lumbermills on them, that would be 66 worker turns (16 for lumbermill+6 for RR on marathon speed x3tiles) that you are needing in your capital. Since Bureaucracy will have been the most powerful legal civic available for many hundreds of turns and it gives +50% hammers (and commerce) in you cap this is a lot of free production you are missing out on in your capital. So you are building your lumbermills far too slowly in your most important city. The quickest way to rectify this is is by chopping workers out. Lumbermills do not grow on trees.



FYI- National Park is a really bad idea in your Ironworks city. NP removes access to coal in the city it is in, coal gives +50% hammers in your IW city. The two do not go together.



You did not learn this tactic in MP as any human player would ignore your hill, capture the city, raze it and move on leaving your expensive upgraded unit sitting on its hill looking foolish. From what I know of how the civ4 AI operates it will not behave as you describe either, so this is all just wishful thinking on your part. If you are militarily inferior you have to not be in the war.

For someone who has talked so much about preserving your resources you are being extremely wasteful of them. You have are fighting against stacks of rifles and cavs with pikes and grenadiers, neither of which come close to being able to attack with winning odds. So you are losing. You are countering this by spending huge amounts of resources on MG which can only defend one tile, you are then defending your least valuable tiles. You have researched RR, MilSci and are doing your best to avoid researching economics. You could have gone rifling and assembly line and be shredding charlie with infantry. You wouldn't be able to put RR on your lumbermills but since you haven't even built these yet this does not matter.

Back to the original thread, you could also have just chopped everything, made it to state property and be running workshops.

Nope, in Madrid I'm working only 1 lumbermill, 1 mine, 1 deer, 1 cows, 1 lake, 9 towns. I'm not building Lumbermills there.
Many forests there are regrown. You all seem to ignore this, and it's part of the topic.
Are regrown, so I chop them 2 or 3 times.
I see a waste of hammers building many workers: you must not arrive at one point where your workers have nothing to do. Chop for worker, then chop again for another worker? Without Mathematics? Forests far away from the city? Less than 40 hammers per chop?
I prefer to wait for Mathematics, then wait for borders expansion. And also wait for Masonry to have Stone or Marble for a Wonder, then chop after having them connected. Also, chop for a Warrior or wait for Copper or Iron to be connected, so you chop for Axeman? Don't chop a forest waiting to chop for one Wonder?
There are so many reasons why not chopping at a given time.

National Park do work there with Factory (not Ironworks, but would be the same) and Industrial Park: I have Power from the Three Gorges Dam.
With Nat.Park you have the health to sustain the Ind.Park.

I'm killing AI stacks of Cavs and Rifles with Cannons, then Conquistadores and Grenadiers, plus anything else: I killed many Cavs with Elephants, and Riflemen with Swordsmen and Bows. 2* Grens can kill a 10 strenght Cav (weakened by cannons). And Conquistadores can kill weak Riflemen. I have a few MGs, one or two per tile-to-defend only.
I wanted to get Rifling after Assembly Line, like I've done in other games. Now I dont need Riflemen if I build enough Cannons. And I'm winning by now, not losing - despite lower power.

State Property is something very late from Repl.Parts if you rush for it: you will have so many things to discover, about a 100 turns, 200 turns, to deal without State Property, you might die before reaching it.
When you will reach StateProp, you could get rid of some Lumbermill eventually: it's not something preventing it.

 

[Max Duke]

What do you need +7 health in Zaragoza for? You can chop 14 forests and stay healthy. I am adding oil to the fire just to reinforce the stance that you have incredible amount to learn about Civ 4 and strategies in general (and RL economy) in order for any new players coming to seek knowledge on the S&T to know that chopping the forests is way to go and that immediate benefits >>>>>>> subpar tile improvement when the game should be in the bag anyway.
There is actually a subforum more oriented on roleplaying and sandboxing - Stories and Tales. BTW, I also used to play like you while I was in high school, almost no chops and no whips due to moral reasons. Was stuck at Monarch/Emperor on Epic speed (but was comfortable with Marathon Deity).

N.B., chops are even better on Marathon, worker turn lost entering the forest hurt you 1/3 as much as on normal speed and if you chop into military units, the benefit is incredible to the point of broken mechanics, especially so if you have any military tech lead. You can basically own everyone in the BCs. And you should because it is easy. If you are not, then learn to do it.

Many of those forests in Zaragoza are regrown. Those two adjacent to the city, for example: I built Lumbermills in the outer forests and chopped the others, but then there they had regrown. So now I can chop them again. And they will regrow so I will chop them a third time.
Madrid has so many forests? Yet I chopped for Stonehenge, then chopped for Pyramids, but forests have regrown. So I can chop them again.
I need health for the Factory I will build soon, and I depend on Wine trade so I like 1 health plus in case I lose the trade. I will chop them for the Factory - and I could not if I had chopped everything in the past.