How does Mansa Musa always stay ahead in tech?

[Archbob]

I just lost on prince by about 5 turns to space race. I'm not sure how the malinese do it. I'm twice their size and they always manage to stay ahead of me in tech by 2 or 3 techs.

Neither of us is trading with the other AI because I checked and everyone else is like 7 or 8 techs behind so we can't trade. The AI cheat rate on prince is not that high and I have academies everywhere plus I have almost all the wonders and the research buildings in nearly all my cities and yet he still manages to outresearch me.

I don't know how he manages to stay 2-3 ahead while all the AI are 7-8 behind.

 

[Landmonitor]

Oh he's not that smart, he just studies all the time. Your civ is out living life and enjoying itself, which is important. Mansa's just working all the time; its not worth it.

I have no idea how he does it... probably lots of Cottages, Gem mines, and Fur camps.

 

[petey]

He's Financial, so that gives him a boost. Also, he's only half your size, so his maintenance costs aren't so big. He's also Spiritual, so it was easier for him to switch to things like State Property and Representation that help boost research.

In most of my games, he's the tech leader, so there may also be some coding in for him that favours science specialists or something.

 

[Archbob]

Its a huge epic map BTW and I have cottaged pretty much every tile of cottageable land.

I have science at 80% so I doubt his science slider is that much higher. I'm playing China so I also have Financial.

 

[Zombie69]

Maybe he trades more.

Don't forget AI bonuses either.

If you're not playing a financial civ, here's your explanation right there.

 

[Archbob]

Maybe he trades more.

Don't forget AI bonuses either.

If you're not playing a financial civ, here's your explanation right there.

I explained that those three were not the case in the earlier posts in this thread.

1. Neither of us can trade, there is no one even close in tech

2. We are both Financial

3. On Prince the AI bonus is not large.

 

[Willem]

I'm twice their size and they always manage to stay ahead of me in tech by 2 or 3 techs.

If you're twice the size then you have at least twice the maintanence cost, probably more. That can make a big difference right there. Bigger is not always better in Civ 4.

 

[Potatish]

3. On Prince...

And there's your answer.

 

[Archbob]

Actually I have state property on and as I said I have a 80% tech rate still. Even at 80% tech, I have about +200 gold per turn(I can't switch to 90 or I'll go negative).

I maintanence cost calculated before the slider?

 

[MrCynical]

At Prince the AI get's a 5% bonus, which is enough bonus beakers to add up to three or more techs in the game by itself. Secondly Mansa Musa will almost invariably get one of the early religions due to his starting techs and research preferences. This gives him a nice early shrine and he can also pick up hard cash by selling obsolete tech to backward civs (and he's just about the only AI that will do that). You're running on 80% science? It's quite possible Mansa Musa has been running 100% for the entire game, and I'd be surprised if he dropped below 90% at any point. The fact you're twice his size doen't necessarily mean you've got twice the income, and hence science, as Willem points out.

Mansa Musa is easily the best programmed AI in the game, since he's the only one that trades properly.

EDIT: Maintenance cost is counted before the slider. If you're making 200gpt then shift your research up to 90% for a while. Your treasury should be able to sustain it for a reasonable amount of time.

 

[Willem]

Actually I have state property on and as I said I have a 80% tech rate still. Even at 80% tech, I have about +200 gold per turn(I can't switch to 90 or I'll go negative).

I maintanence cost calculated before the slider?

Of course, the slider only applies to what is left over after your other expenses. And State Property is still affected by the number of cities you have. The only thing it eliminates is the distance from capital equation. With twice as many cities, you'll have more than twice the maintenance costs for each one.

 

[Willem]

EDIT: Maintenance cost is counted before the slider. If you're making 200gpt then shift your research up to 90% for a while. Your treasury should be able to sustain it for a reasonable amount of time.

I found that's not really a good idea. At 90% research, my cities weren't producing enough commerce to make Markets and Banks worthwhile. Unless of course you even bother building them. At least with 200 gpt, he'll have neough cash lying around to upgrade his units.

 

[Archbob]

I just buy buildings in the new cities I've conquered like forges and factories, the ramp up production. After a couple of turns, I can have libraries/Universities in all of them.

 

[Jarrod32]

Mansa is always in the running in my games, too. I play on noble, and I had to push a domination victory to beat Mansa's spaceship (he had all but a couple parts built when I reached domination level). In another game, I had to attack him, take and raze a city (where he was building his last spaceship part), and use some spy/sabotage to beat him to space by two turns.

Also, his spiritual trait helps, as well. I know a lot of people don't care for that trait (I actually like it)...but...if you each had five civic changes through the game, he was able to make them without any anarchy. There is your margin of victory (five turns) right there.

 

[DaveMcW]

I found that's not really a good idea. At 90% research, my cities weren't producing enough commerce to make Markets and Banks worthwhile. Unless of course you even bother building them. At least with 200 gpt, he'll have neough cash lying around to upgrade his units.

There's nothing wrong with Markets and Banks being unproductive. Your Libaries/Observatories/Monasteries/Universities/Academies are going to be even more productive.

If you have a worldwide religion funding your upkeep you may want to avoid building more banks, but nothing (except lack of funds!) is forcing you to use the existing ones.

 

[TCGTRF]

I just lost on prince by about 5 turns to space race. I'm not sure how the malinese do it. I'm twice their size and they always manage to stay ahead of me in tech by 2 or 3 techs.

Neither of us is trading with the other AI because I checked and everyone else is like 7 or 8 techs behind so we can't trade. The AI cheat rate on prince is not that high and I have academies everywhere plus I have almost all the wonders and the research buildings in nearly all my cities and yet he still manages to outresearch me.

I don't know how he manages to stay 2-3 ahead while all the AI are 7-8 behind.

You've got almost all the wonders? There's your problem. You need specific wonders that are going to produce Scientist GPPs--Great Library, specifically. If you are going for a space race victory, why would you need all the wonders *or* a huge civilization?

You don't need academies everywhere! You need an academy in one or two of your high beaker cities. The GP Scientists alone that you used to build those academies would have given you the techs that would have put you far enough ahead of MM to have beaten him. You don't NEED research buildings in all of your cities, you just need them in one or two of your beaker-producing cities, which you switch over to maximize research once they're built. (The exception to this is the Libraries and Universities, of which you need to build enough to put Oxford University in your #1 Science city.)

While the AI goes for a Space Race victory because it's the easiest for it, it's good for you to start laying the groundwork for it fairly early. If you decide to go for something else, you still have a good tech background. By the beginning of the Industrial Age, you DEFINITELY have to start heading for techs that will enable you to build your Space ship.

Tom

 

[Willem]

Also, his spiritual trait helps, as well. I know a lot of people don't care for that trait (I actually like it)...but...if you each had five civic changes through the game, he was able to make them without any anarchy. There is your margin of victory (five turns) right there.

Not to mention that he can switch back and forth anytime depending on his needs at the moment. If they're at war, the AI will always switch to civics like Theocracy and Vassalage to give them an edge, then switch back after the war is over. A Spiritual civ can do this seamlessly.

 

[Archbob]

Well, there was quite a bit of war going on too, so I had to build units to defend myself and conquer 2 other Civilizations. And actually with my infrastructure, I was able to get it down to about 1 tech per 6 turns or so.
I produced a large number of great engineers so thats why I got so many of the wonders. I also produced some Great scientists which I used either to join city or to build the academy.

 

[TCGTRF]

Well, there was quite a bit of war going on too, so I had to build units to defend myself and conquer 2 other Civilizations. And actually with my infrastructure, I was able to get it down to about 1 tech per 6 turns or so.
I produced a large number of great engineers so thats why I got so many of the wonders. I also produced some Great scientists which I used either to join city or to build the academy.

It's always hard to balance tech advance with military adventures, I'm afraid. What was giving you the engineers? I would have definitely used the scientists in the mid-game to give myself a tech edge and waited to join them with the city until late-game when I had a lot of multipliers.

Did MM skip most of the wars? If so, that was part of your problem.

Tom

 

[Archbob]

Mansa Munsa was a war a couple of time, that was probably the key factor. But even during war, I never dropped below 80% tech and was still building infrastructure all the time. I had alot of the wonders that gave you engineers.

Hanging gardens was necessary because of the health benefits and the other wonders certainly have the benefits that you need. So got about 5 engineering throughout the game.