How many civs are needed, for the civ switching, to work well, for the general public?

[Leyrann]

I just meant that it sounds like in a full game there will always be less civs on the map in antiquity compared to exploration. Therefore the game could have a smaller selection of antiquity civs overall and still get a similar random selection in each era. That is if antiquity always does have less civs than the subsequent exploration era AND if the added civs in exploration are only spawned ex nihilo during the transition to exploration. But I don’t know if that’s how it works.

It was confirmed, I think during the recent live stream, that the other continent plays a parallel game during the Antiquity.

 

[Gori the Grey]

30 civs on release is already unprecedented

Except that these are civlets, 1/3 of a civ from previous games (in one manner of looking at it).

By that line of reasoning, we should, I think, see ~50 in the base game.

 

[chaosprophet]

Except that these are civlets, 1/3 of a civ from previous games (in one manner of looking at it).

By that line of reasoning, we should, I think, see ~50 in the base game.

Although, they seems to have more unique features than even the civs you played for a full game before had, all with their own art architecture and etc. So resources wise they should be a hard, if not harder, to make than a civ 6 civ. The reason we will still gets lots out of the gate, likely much more than ever before, even with that cost is because they made a system where we need at least a good number for each age. It all depends on the biggest map available at release. The standard of 5/8 depending on age would means we would need at least 5 ancient and 8 exploration and modern (or is it just modern that has 8?) for the standard map size but then at least a few more each age so not all games have all civs. If we have the huge size maps at release for single player (or at least planned to be available as soon as possible) then that would mean at least 12 for the later ages (taking in account the minimum for huge maps in civ 6) and then a few more to not always have to use them all with civ 7 vanilla.

 

[pokiehl]

Except that these are civlets, 1/3 of a civ from previous games (in one manner of looking at it).

I think it’s rather the opposite. Civs in Civ 7 are the most detailed and involved than they’ve ever been in the series in terms of quantity of unique components.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Except that these are civlets, 1/3 of a civ from previous games (in one manner of looking at it).

By that line of reasoning, we should, I think, see ~50 in the base game.

But that line of reasoning is flat wrong.

Civs in Civ VII that we've seen can have Attributes, a Unique Military AND Civilian Units, 1 - 2 Unique Structures, and Unique Districts/Quarters. That's more special features than the Civs in Civ VI OR Civ V and all those special features are applicable in the Age the Civ is built for and not inappropriate for Too Much of the game (looking at you, America's P-51 in Civ VI!).

In addition, each Civ being divorced from a specific Leader, they can gain special features, potentially, from almost any Leader, which greatly increases the variety available from the Civs.

Finally, aspects of the Civ can carry over to the next and succeeding Ages, so they are only limited to a single Age if they only feature in the Modern Age.

I grant you that means we cannot see the iconic American Pikeman so beloved of Thomas Jackson, but I can live with that.

 

[AriochIV]

Except that these are civlets, 1/3 of a civ from previous games (in one manner of looking at it).

By that line of reasoning, we should, I think, see ~50 in the base game.

It's 1/3 of a civ in gameplay terms, but in cost of assets per civ it's significantly higher than in previous iterations. Each civ has far more custom unit and building graphics than ever before.

If we go just by gameplay, to match previous iterations there should be 60 civs at release, but I just don't see that happening. I'll be pleased but surprised if there are many more than 10 per Age to begin with.

Civs in Civ VII that we've seen can have Attributes, a Unique Military AND Civilian Units, 1 - 2 Unique Structures, and Unique Districts/Quarters. That's more special features than the Civs in Civ VI OR Civ V and all those special features are applicable in the Age the Civ is built for and not inappropriate for Too Much of the game (looking at you, America's P-51 in Civ VI!).

But it's even worse than that for the Civ6 P-51 -- not only is it a unit that doesn't arrive until the end of the game, but it's completely useless when it does arrive, since the AI doesn't use air units.

 

[TheGrayFox]

We would need rougly 3x the amount of civilizations to have the same experience as past Civ Games. Regardless of how much assets and work each civ now requires to make, each civ is only played during a 1/3rd of the game.

We've need around 50 to account for this and civ swapping but instead we're probably going to get around 30 and then we'll be drip fed the rest in obnoxious amount of DLC

 

[moondog385]

I think a better question is how much does the general public care.

Personally, I’d like them to include as many civs as possible but I would’ve wanted that even without the civ switching mechanic.

 

[Gori the Grey]

You all make good points

But

We're already speculating that several civs that in RL span multiple of Civ VII's ages will have distinct representation in two, or maybe all three, ages. Meiji Japan implies that there will be other forms of Japan in other ages.

That's not going to come at the cost of a usual game's array of civs. They're not going to, e.g. throw out the Mongols, so they can get two Japans.

So

those two forces combined are going to give us a total number of civs on a par with Usual Civ # x 3. I suspect.

Edit: Gray Fox makes my basic point (but spells grey wrong)

Edit 2: Or, let's x 2, since there plenty RL civs for which they do not need to develop versions for multiple ages: Babylon, America.

 

[j51]

I seem to remember it being said in an interview last month that there would be 45 civs in the base game. Am I misremembering that?

 

[TheGrayFox]

I seem to remember it being said in an interview last month that there would be 45 civs in the base game. Am I misremembering that?

I don't remember seeing any concrete numbers thrown around

 

[Zaarin]

I seem to remember it being said in an interview last month that there would be 45 civs in the base game. Am I misremembering that?

The 45 number is based on speculation (informed speculation but still speculation) based on other factors like wonders and UI snippets, but FXS hasn't given a number yet.

 

[vorlon_mi]

Age 1 10 Base +15 DLC
Age 2 10 Base +15 DLC
Age 3 10 Base +15 DLC
Age 4 +12 DLC

The DLC potential is enormous. In Feb 2025, they release Civ7 with something like this setup: 10 Civs per age.
They have already announced one special Exploration Era civ, that may be pre-ordered.
Might they offer a DLC with 3, one from each era? Might they offer a DLC with 3 new Modern Eras, to move into?

Indeed, they've also announced an alternate Leader persona for pre-order. New Leaders will certainly be a DLC (like Leader Pass Mark II?)
and persona packs as well.
>>> In response to the OP, I think they will have something like the above with a choice of 10 leaders. The initial choices will include some representation in their largest-selling markets and some representation of leaders/civs that haven't made it into a civ game before.

I think adding an additional Era (Future Era) will be inclcuded in an Expansion Pack, since it would require serious changes to gameplay.

 

[Zaarin]

I think adding an additional Era (Future Era) will be inclcuded in an Expansion Pack, since it would require serious changes to gameplay.

I remain skeptical we'll see additional ages. Not only does the new age require unique gameplay and unique civs, but it also takes a 600 turn game and makes it an 800 turn game--even as an Epic player that gives me pause. I think the three ages were chosen deliberately, and I don't think we'll see more added.

 

[chaosprophet]

The 45 number is based on speculation (informed speculation but still speculation) based on other factors like wonders and UI snippets, but FXS hasn't given a number yet.

They probably aren't even completely set at this point themselves on the exact number. With 5 months to release, there may be civs they may add if things are going smoothly, or maybe one or other they may cut if balancing for them don't work well at all until release is closer, etc.

I remain skeptical we'll see additional ages. Not only does the new age require unique gameplay and unique civs, but it also takes a 600 turn game and makes it an 800 turn game--even as an Epic player that gives me pause. I think the three ages were chosen deliberately, and I don't think we'll see more added.

One thing I was thinking of before, if they ever want to try thinking of adding another age, they could give it a test by adding as a scenario, like a future age scenario about the size or a bit smaller than a game age and see how the reception is, if things works, etc, before going for the work to actually adding one to the game.

I do agree with you though, even a future one, that I think would be the most likely to be added, is still quite unlikely.

 

[AriochIV]

That 45 number is pure fantasy.

 

[j51]

Probably yeah but hopefully no not.

 

[Leyrann]

Re: work to create civs.

I'm not so sure that civs are more work than they were in 6. Why? Because both DLC packs that we have information on (the one that comes with the Deluxe and Founders Edition and the one that comes with the Founders Edition only) contain 4 civs and only 2 leaders. To me, that implies (although obviously doesn't confirm outright) that a leader is more work than a civ, probably due to the high quality artwork required, plus animations and all that. If correct, then a civ in 6 (which includes a leader) is pretty much by definition more work than a civ in 7 (without leader). Assuming, of course, that the same effort is put into a Civ 6 and a Civ 7 leader.

Viewed another way, while civs contain a lot of content, most of this content is pretty low effort. I've only got rudimentary modding experience, but I could probably whip up the unique bonuses of a civ in an afternoon. So long as it's purely bonus-based, without art or new mechanics, it's incredibly easy to add, in particular in Civ's pretty open and modular structure.

 

[Zaarin]

o me, that implies (although obviously doesn't confirm outright) that a leader is more work than a civ, probably due to the high quality artwork required

Where have we seen high quality leader artwork in Civ7?

(Snark aside, yes, I'm sure leaders are still more work than civ models, even though they now look like they were borrowed from a late 00s BioWare game.)

 

[j51]

(Snark aside, yes, I'm sure leaders are still more work than civ models, even though they now look like they were borrowed from a late 00s BioWare game.)

But can they awkwardly make out with each other?