How much do you value the Great Wall?

[krc]

I got distracted while reading some posts about steam achievements and decided to look at where I stood by perusing the "achievements_debug.log". I realized that I only needed about a dozen victories to complete the "Shafernator" achievement. I then decided that the fastest way to accomplish this was to play a series of Pangaea Duels (on King). So I did.

All of which is prelude to the real point of this post. I soon realized (4 out of 6 duels) that the AI is extremely fond of constructing the Great Wall. Before this set of games, I rarely prioritized the Great Wall. And, playing with 8 civilizations, I had not noticed that it was a high priority for many AI civs. I also learned that a Duel map where the AI gets the Great Wall is going to make it a lot harder to get a quick domination victory....

So, in later Duels in this series, I started going for The Great Wall myself. My basic strategy was to aggressively pump out three early settlers and plant them in positions to limit the AI's room to expand. Built early walls in those cites. Inevitably, the GE from Liberty popped around the same turn that the AI decided to DoW, and I used it for the Great Wall. Bought a couple of archers, and could hold off any assault while developing and building the rest of my empire. (Note in particular that a few Chinese Chu-ko-nus with the Great Wall are nearly indestructible. I held off a Russian assault by destroying ten units in three turns with 4 or 5 Chu-ko-nus. And not only lost no units, but suffered 0 hit point losses in the process.)

And so, the question: do you ever make it a point to try to get the Great Wall? Does it make sense to do so in more typical situations with more AI civs?

 

[NotSure]

Not a priority for me. There's just too many other things to build. The AI snatches wonders quickly and if I commit to going for any wonder that early in the game it would be GL. I believe I'd get more utility out of the Hanging Gardens or Pyramids than the Great Wall. I guess if I were cornered by China or England I'd consider it.

 

[avdale]

I think the problem is that you rarely want to be fighting a defensive war in your territory. An A.I suiciding his units at you doesn't gain you anything. So building the great wall feels like planning for a worst case scenario instead of focusing on attacking that a.i and taking your cities. Also as you mentioned the A.I really loves to rush it very early meaning that you have to sacrifice early city growth/forests to get it. This is normally balanced out with wonders like the Great Library by how insanely strong they are but for the great wall not so much.

 

[ense7en]

Yeah AI loves the Great Wall way too much.

I don't bother trying for it.
For a defensive turtling game it could be rather nice, but it's not really worth going for IMHO.

 

[mutant-enemy]

I don't bother trying for it.
For a defensive turtling game it could be rather nice, but it's not really worth going for IMHO.

Yeah, if you WANT to play a more defensive game (which tends to a science, cultural or diplomatic victory) then you usually have other priorities. (e.g. GL, HS, PT, ...)

It could be useful, but it wouldn't be my priority.

 

[King of Prussia]

I don't think the Great wall is that great to me. Especially when there are other more usefull wonders like the Pyramids or the stonehenge. Maybe if they gave free walls to all your cities I would consider it.

 

[ShunNakamura]

Against the AI the real usefulness of building it is denying it from the AI(particularly if the AI that would have gotten it is your neighbor/first conquest). The great wall can make an invasion much trickier, particularly if you have to go through a mountain pass to attack.


That said I don't bother. The bonus I get is merely an easier conquest of one opponent before dynamite sets in. Not enough of a bonus in general for the opportunity cost.

I wonder if it is more useful in mutliplayer? I assume human players can actually war decently and slashing mobility is likely more useful in such an instance. . .

 

[joncnunn]

According to the stats, Great Wall is one of the two standard wonders I've yet to build at all in Civ V.
I don't recall even trying to build it.

I think I've come into possession of the GW two or three times via conquering my opponent.

 

[ense7en]

Against the AI the real usefulness of building it is denying it from the AI(particularly if the AI that would have gotten it is your neighbor/first conquest). The great wall can make an invasion much trickier, particularly if you have to go through a mountain pass to attack.


That said I don't bother. The bonus I get is merely an easier conquest of one opponent before dynamite sets in. Not enough of a bonus in general for the opportunity cost.

I wonder if it is more useful in mutliplayer? I assume human players can actually war decently and slashing mobility is likely more useful in such an instance. . .

I can imagine it's a lot more useful in MP.
In my current game, Korea, who was my first target for takeover built it just before i had planned to attack.

It made it very difficult and annoying to take their capital!
http://ense7en.com/pics/civ5/2011-12-13_00005.jpg
But i got it eventually.

 

[MisterBoomBoom]

I rarely build it. Good for a large empire going up against fast units or specialized units moving through woods etc quickly. But it never is a priority wonder build for me. The fact that it goes away makes it even more worthless. IDEA: Let it convert to a happiness pop for tourism later in the modern era.

 

[Steelyglint]

According to the stats, Great Wall is one of the two standard wonders I've yet to build at all in Civ V.
I don't recall even trying to build it.

What's the other one?

 

[The Little One]

Err... if you're planning on going for domination, get it just to stop anyone else getting it (very annoying with the AI). If not, get it to have one of the best defense mechanisms in the game

 

[devilhunterred]

Not worth it unless you have an huge empire, which isn't likely anyways in the classical age.

Back in CIV IV the Great Wall was actually really useful, especially if you are playing with raging barbarians.

 

[Knut_Are_M]

The great wall is very useful in a land map in multiplayer games.
especially if your cities are located on open terrain.
The player that gets the great wall is almost impossible to conquer if he builds some ranged units and pikes.
If you ics, get the great wall.

 

[apocalypse105]

I allways build the great wall if china/england is my neigbhour So they dont get it

cho cho nu and longbowman with the great wall is a pain in the ass

 

[joncnunn]

The Great Lighthouse, but I've tried to build that one a few times, but got beat out (and promptly used a time machine to build something else in the capital)

What's the other one?

 

[MasterMishi]

in a duel its well worth getting but prob after hanging gardens and G lib have gone, build it later in the order and you have more hammers in the city
With the great wall you can play a defensive build to an artillary domination.
If your terrain is vulnerable or large front and importantly their terrain hard to attack then GW is a good build.
If your enemy is easier to attack then the hammers could be used to build a decisive domination with a classical/ medieval unit rush and kill before they build it.
In the event they beeline GW and have it as early as possible then a pure unit rush to massive military advantage might take the cap despite the movement penalty.

 

[Soryn Arkayn]

IMO the Great Wall is only useful to the Player if you're going for non-Domination Victories, because it is the most powerful defensive Wonder. With it you can slow an enemy invasion to a crawl and pick off their units one-by-one with a small defensive force.

However, if conquest is part of your strategy, then the Great Wall is the least important Wonder, because you should be fighting offensively, not defensively; but the Great Wall only affects enemy units invading your territory.

I like the Great Wall's effect (it's possibly the most appropriate of all the Wonders) and wouldn't change anything -- but I rarely ever build it.

 

[TPQ]

Not a priority for me. I find there are more profitable wonders I'd much rather build or spend my liberty GE on, like the Great Library, or The Oracle.

I find that the Great Wall, while a nice bonus to have, is not really all that helpful to the AI vs a human player and completely unnecessary for the human player VS the AI. That is to say that, you can crush an AI that has the GW almost as easily (if a little more slowly) as one without it and you can defend from an AI attack without having the GW virtually as easily as if you did have it.

In and AI vs AI war, the one with the GW will have a decent advantage though, especially for the defender with the GW, but otherwise the GW shouldn't be a priority for anybody imo.

 

[MkLh]

Worthless. It may look useful for a defensive turtling game (which is a suboptimal playing style anyway), but IIRC it obsoletes quite early and certainly doesn't protect you against nukes.