Evaluating wonders.

[elmurcis]

Strongest wonder in game is no doubt Chicken Itzu. Drop it right into face of AI and it will instantly capitulate to you. Even without knowing Feudalism. Or having Vassal states enabled at all

 

[Elliot_Ness]

I rather like the globe theatre. I draft a lot in my games though.

 

[sampsa]

I rather like the globe theatre. I draft a lot in my games though.

If you attack with drafted rifles I agree that GT is pretty good!

 

[Gwaja]

This may be outside the realm of the discussion at hand, but as a learning player of the game, it served me well to ignore wonders and play without them. I always considered wonders as purely optional and never a necessity or a must-built. This helps to not be reliant on gambits that may not always work and instead helps focus on the basics from the ground up sorta speak.

The Great Wall is one of those wonders that attract new players at lower skill levels. Who likes barbarians after all? The thing is... it is much more beneficial in terms of gameplay improvement to learn how to deal with barbarians without resorting to the wonder. Espionage is great, but I feel that is secondary to learning to manage research.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The problem with Stonehenge is that we have to commit before having explored enough of the map to know that we should commit.

Why is there a debate about forges here? One forge for the city to build wonders at least. Six forges for the ironworks. If you cannot afford this investment, then you are at war, which means you are not building wonders.

Generally I think players should go for national wonders more often. They are more powerful than regular city improvements.

 

[sampsa]

Why is there a debate about forges here?

Because I have a hammer and obviously no forge, so I hammer here!

One forge for the city to build wonders at least.

Sure, and I'm certainly not saying you shouldn't ever build a forge. You don't need to build wonders though.

Six forges for the ironworks.

Do you need ironworks? Certainly not if you win by cuirs, cavs, cannons or rifles.

If you cannot afford this investment, then you are at war, which means you are not building wonders.

Which means you are winning the game, perhaps? Not sure if that is what you mean exactly.

Generally I think players should go for national wonders more often. They are more powerful than regular city improvements.

I think they are built too often! As already discussed: if you run a single GA, NE is mediocre if we are being generous. HE decent, sure, GT good for rifle draft wars. If you are able to build FP, you are already going for a long game (I hope).

Honestly in order for any national wonder to have a real impact, the game needs to not be won at rifles. So I assume you are talking only about long games. What I am trying to say that you don't need to make every game long. Below deity you close to never do.

 

[Fippy]

NE + Glib really shines on Astro maps.
Let's be honest Sampsa, everything but units + bulbing towards a key military tech has lower return on maps where you need just that
We will not get very far in creating discussions if we take only that kind of game to measure.

 

[sampsa]

Let's be honest Sampsa, everything but units + bulbing towards a key military tech has lower return on maps where you need just that
We will not get very far in creating discussions if we take only that kind of game to measure.

I understand. Someone is talking only about deity, someone only about pangaeaish maps, someone might be talking about multiplayer and so on.

I wanted to give food for thought, but now I'll stop. Until we meet again...

 

[pigswill]

One thing about Gwall is that at higher levels barbarians are more intense at the start but disappear earlier as AIs pump out fogbusting units and cities much quicker. At lower levels barbs appear later but persist longer because AIs are slower. This makes Gwall less useful at higher levels and more useful at lower difficulties.

 

[sampsa]

Having played some emperor, I agree that there seems to be more metal unit barbs and their era lasts longer. However the GSpy is way way better on deity and of marginal use on lower levels.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Having played some emperor, I agree that there seems to be more metal unit barbs and their era lasts longer. However the GSpy is way way better on deity and of marginal use on lower levels.

Also, an archer entering your borders on turn 35 is worse than an axeman on (say) turn 65

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Hot take, I love Shwedagon Paya whenever I'm playing a spiritual leader. Or sometimes for an engineering rush. It would be nice if it didn't require meditation though.

 

[Gwaja]

NE + Glib really shines on Astro maps.
Let's be honest Sampsa, everything but units + bulbing towards a key military tech has lower return on maps where you need just that
We will not get very far in creating discussions if we take only that kind of game to measure.

Now if only we can get a mod to introduce a PHI / IND leader, that would be totally dreamy. ^_^

 

[soundjata]

I am more used to your dreaming of pain @Gwaja

On topic: what a wonderful world

 

[konata_LS]

What I am trying to say that you don't need to make every game long.

For some newbies like me, one of our problems is "the game ends too quickly", not "the game lasts too long" .

Spoiler :

Continents (more than 1000 tiles). Raging barbarians; start next to tundra and ice.
The game ended on T45.

 

[Fool's Gold]

For a Cultural Victory in BTS, I hear the Sistine Chapel is essential; I would assume that the other (nice-to-have) World Wonders would be the Parthenon, MoM and Taj Mahal, with NE and Hermitage as National Wonders? How much of a concern is GP pollution if you decide to go for a non-Artist Wonder?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

For a Cultural Victory in BTS, I hear the Sistine Chapel is essential; I would assume that the other (nice-to-have) World Wonders would be the Parthenon, MoM and Taj Mahal, with NE and Hermitage as National Wonders? How much of a concern is GP pollution if you decide to go for a non-Artist Wonder?

For a traditional cultural victory, yes, first to music and sistine chapel is essential. Marble is almost essential. Mausoleum of Maussollos is nice but not essential (I would not research calendar, but once I got the Mom by stealing calendar from a neighbour. Don't waste those 4 espionage points per turn from the palace). National Epic and Hermitage can be built anytime at your convenience. Great people pollution is no big deal because you will have so many, but what's the reason? Maybe except for the pyramids, what non-artist world wonder would you want?

A modern-era cultural victory is totally different, and off-topic.

 

[Fippy]

Sistine isn't that strong imo..Great Artists give 4k culture and ideally many cities work on their generation, making Parthenon the essential wonder.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Agree that Parthenon is more important but I still really like Sistine. The 50% increase on artist culture is great if one of your three cities is getting its culture from running artists and culture bombs. Granted often all three cities are mainly using cottages for culture but I’ve had legendary cities which have largely got there on seafood powered artists because lots of food but not many land tiles. Also, the 10 extra culture you get from your religion’s temple and monastery is really nice. It’s passive and starts early.

It’s also not really an either or given Parthenon tech is on the way to Sistine and winning music is nice. Settling a great artist at that point of the game generates loads of culture and the plus three (?) gold is nice too. You also have to get music at some point for the cathedrals and it’s good trade bait.

 

[drewisfat]

Hot take, I love Shwedagon Paya whenever I'm playing a spiritual leader. Or sometimes for an engineering rush. It would be nice if it didn't require meditation though.

I think this is a good point. I mean I wouldn't say "whenever" I'd at least need to have gold. Shweddy easy to dismiss cuz you're so close already to pacifism, the one and only religious civic. But with SPI there's certainly some optimization that can be found bouncing around OR/Theo/FR which are otherwise all locked under techs I avoid like the plague. The issue is it can compete with your attention for GLib and Parth.