How much "power" is enough?

[UltraMind]

I see my cities can build a number of improvements that provide "power": coal, hydro, neucular. The game nor the instructions make it clear that the effects are additive, and there's no indication of how much more productive any of these will make the cities. Are they additive or is one working power plant enough? And how much do these power plants contribute?

 

[Swordnboard]

Power provides an additional 50% to hammer output with a factory, regardless of how many sources you have. Power from a coal plant is "dirty" (giving +2), but available early on. The other power types (hydro, nuclear, and the three gorges dam), are "clean", and do not cause the same level of unhealthiness. Furthermore, if you connect a "clean" power source in a city which already has a "dirty" source, the clean source wins out and the health penalty disappears.

 

[UltraMind]

So you are saying that the effects of multiple power plants are not additive? Doesn't that mean that if you have a power plant and if aren't concerned about the side-effects (if there are any) that it's wasteful to build another one? Wouldn't the game be doing a service to the player by taking inferior power plants off the table? I just built the Three Gorges Dam, but still have the option of building hydro dams and nukes.

 

[Swordnboard]

Yes, multiple power sources are not additive. It's good to still have the option to build them in case your city with the three gorges dam gets conquered I guess.

 

[lymond]

3GD provides power to all cities on the same Continent in which it was built. Each city gets unhealthies as if a hydro plant was built there, including the related unhealthiness of the hydro plant (no, they are not "clean" but are cleaner than the other plants) but building 3GD does not give free hydro plants in those cities. Option to build a hydro or any other will remain in those cities. Pretty easy to ignore.

Yes, and it is most certainly wasteful to build more power plants in cities with power. It does do anything except possibly add more unhealthiness.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

A Nuclear Plant will always have a small chance of destroying itself and causing a nuclear explosion. This behaviour is true even if you build other Power Plants and have The Three Gorges Dam World Wonder. This rule is in contrast to how a Coal Plant "stops being used" when another source of Power is available, which is rather unfortunate.

Note that unused Great People (but not settled Great People) can die in a nuclear explosion, so don't keep them parked in a City with a Nuclear Power Plant while you decide how to use them or while you wait to partner them with others for a Golden Age.

 

[ArchGhost]

I see my cities can build a number of improvements that provide "power": coal, hydro, neucular. The game nor the instructions make it clear that the effects are additive, and there's no indication of how much more productive any of these will make the cities. Are they additive or is one working power plant enough? And how much do these power plants contribute?

The effect of power is slightly confusing because of the way it interacts with the Factory and slightly ambiguous flavor text. Regardless of the source, Power adds +2 unhealthy penalty to any city. According to the city screen, Power itself adds the 50% bonus and the Factory sill only gives 25% It's very odd that the factory flavor text states it gets a +50% bonus from power (which is meant to mean an additional 50% bonus on top of the base 25% of the factory for 75% total) but the breakdown of hammer modifiers in the city screen suggest that Power add 50% by itself...this is only possible in a city powered remotely by Three Gorges Dam as all 3 power plants require a factory in place before they can be built.

In any case, Power adds unhealthy, you only get a hammer bonus with a Factory in place, and the differences between the power plants are what resources/tech they require (Coal, Nuclear) and terrain (Hydro).

Coal Plants are the most accessible and come the earliest along with Factories at Assembly Line, and so are often the easiest option unless you can't get Coal, but add extra unhealthy as their caveat (pollution, I suppose). When coal plants are obsoleted by another source the health penalty goes away, but it can be hard to catch because the city screen tracks their unhealthiness penalty under "from Power" and not "from Buildings" and the city screen is not exactly forthcoming with all of its information tracking anyway.

Nuclear Plants come slightly later at Fission, are cleaner (only the Power itself adds unhealthy) but can randomly meltdown and wreck your city population and a bunch of the buildings in it!

Hydro Plants are also clean and don't need Uranium or Coal but require river spots and Plastics is the longest tech to get of the three.

I think all contribute to late game Global Warming (factories and forges already do) but Nuclear and Coal may do so even more? Not sure about that.

Doesn't that mean that if you have a power plant and if aren't concerned about the side-effects (if there are any) that it's wasteful to build another one?

Yes and no. Most of the time, Coal is accessible and the additional unhealthy penalty isn't a big deal since +50% hammers is powerful and can offset a couple population lost, but you still may opt to build hydros to remove it and let that river city enjoy 4 less unhealthy overall with Fresh Water. You can build Nuke plants if you can't get Coal but do have Uranium, just like building navies with it when you can't get Oil. They are options, not necessarily equal to another, but options nonetheless.

"Wasteful" is relative, but considering the threat of meltdowns with Nuke plants and the odd specificity of hydros (not every city can be on a river....) along with their hammer cost, I just never bother with anything but the Coal Plant and do whatever it takes to secure a source of Coal like with Oil. Even Three Gorges, while it seems like an attractive prospect, is really just fluff at that point of the game.

 

[Fish Man]

The effect of power is slightly confusing because of the way it interacts with the Factory and slightly ambiguous flavor text. Regardless of the source, Power adds +2 unhealthy penalty to any city. According to the city screen, Power itself adds the 50% bonus and the Factory sill only gives 25% It's very odd that the factory flavor text states it gets a +50% bonus from power (which is meant to mean an additional 50% bonus on top of the base 25% of the factory for 75% total) but the breakdown of hammer modifiers in the city screen suggest that Power add 50% by itself...this is only possible in a city powered remotely by Three Gorges Dam as all 3 power plants require a factory in place before they can be built.

In any case, Power adds unhealthy, you only get a hammer bonus with a Factory in place, and the differences between the power plants are what resources/tech they require (Coal, Nuclear) and terrain (Hydro).

Coal Plants are the most accessible and come the earliest along with Factories at Assembly Line, and so are often the easiest option unless you can't get Coal, but add extra unhealthy as their caveat (pollution, I suppose). When coal plants are obsoleted by another source the health penalty goes away, but it can be hard to catch because the city screen tracks their unhealthiness penalty under "from Power" and not "from Buildings" and the city screen is not exactly forthcoming with all of its information tracking anyway.

Nuclear Plants come slightly later at Fission, are cleaner (only the Power itself adds unhealthy) but can randomly meltdown and wreck your city population and a bunch of the buildings in it!

Hydro Plants are also clean and don't need Uranium or Coal but require river spots and Plastics is the longest tech to get of the three.

I think all contribute to late game Global Warming (factories and forges already do) but Nuclear and Coal may do so even more? Not sure about that.


Yes and no. Most of the time, Coal is accessible and the additional unhealthy penalty isn't a big deal since +50% hammers is powerful and can offset a couple population lost, but you still may opt to build hydros to remove it and let that river city enjoy 4 less unhealthy overall with Fresh Water. You can build Nuke plants if you can't get Coal but do have Uranium, just like building navies with it when you can't get Oil. They are options, not necessarily equal to another, but options nonetheless.

"Wasteful" is relative, but considering the threat of meltdowns with Nuke plants and the odd specificity of hydros (not every city can be on a river....) along with their hammer cost, I just never bother with anything but the Coal Plant and do whatever it takes to secure a source of Coal like with Oil. Even Three Gorges, while it seems like an attractive prospect, is really just fluff at that point of the game.

Wouldn’t quite agree with the last statement. Three Gorges is probably the best late game wonder. First of all, if you have a lot of cities it saves a lot of hammers. If you have about 30 cities then 30 coal plants cost 4500 hammers compared to 1750 for the dam...that’s almost 3k hammers saved, more if you burn a GE that otherwise wouldn’t have much use at this stage of the game. But there’s also the unhealthiness you avoid...2 less unhealthy in 30 cities means effectively 60 extra food per turn. This might enable you to skip refrigeration for supermarkets, which is another couple thousand beakers saved.

There’s also a slightly less tangible benefit: when you build coal plants for factories, your economy will likely take a temporary nosedive as many cities switch away from building wealth and research. By avoiding this with the dam you will tech through the modern era much, much faster, leading to tanks or SS parts or whatever critical thing you need a dozen turns earlier.

 

[ArchGhost]

Don't agree with Three Gorges being good at all, especially in that stage of the game. But to each his own. I don't like most wonders that aren't named Kremlin, Taj Mahal, or The Pyramids. Great Lib and GLH occasionally make situational cases better. I view wonders as distractions or fail-gold sinks.

The issue is going to Plastics; all modern warfare can be solved with Tanks in numbers Spy revolts, Artillery, or Nukes if you have to resort to that. Not that it's hard to get there or anything, but you only ever "need" to go Plastics if going for Space, which admittedly I really suck at, I've never had a good Space Race and don't really understand how to.

It's super expensive and can't be sped up, only buildable in specific terrain (river). Saving the hammers for all the coal plants for those cities isn't as easy as adding up all the costs of those hammers across all cities...some are too hammer weak to bother with factories, some focus on specialists or cottages depending on the spot.

Arguing lots of cities = lots of benefit from a wonder that offers an indirect boon is frankly the same sort of fallacy associated with Statue of Liberty, which is also not very practical in "normal" games; I imagine it's amazing for score games or anything where you are massively dominant already. you have to do a lot of accommodating of SoL's boon (+1 specialist, so like Rep at least and maybe Mercantilism) to really make it worth it, it's also very expensive and you don't need the tech, in this case, ever.

The unhealthiness is honestly not much issue when you have your terrain carpeted with cities. 2 health is roughly a pop saved and by the point cities go for Factories they will growing up to their soft caps or already be there from working food + commerce while building Wealth up to that point. Especially if you go Biology before Assembly Line. I was shocked how different it is to get Assembly line with and without Biology first.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, I don't really grasp the late game very well at all and please correct me if I'm just flat wrong or something. My way to solve late game issues is chucking tanks at them. There's so much to this game and it has so many various stages. And I know you have defeated Deity before while I have yet to even try it seriously.

There’s also a slightly less tangible benefit: when you build coal plants for factories, your economy will likely take a temporary nosedive as many cities switch away from building wealth and research. By avoiding this with the dam you will tech through the modern era much, much faster, leading to tanks or SS parts or whatever critical thing you need a dozen turns earlier.

True enough. but that's what running 0 slider in US is for, or ORG whips: getting the factories in place. Maybe I don't understand the point of delaying until Plastics to power factories, but such a thing would lower your economic output, no? +50% hammers per city in hammer economy is very significant when building Wealth/Research.

I always find there is a downturn immediately after Assembly Line, yes. At the point where factories+coal come online, the health penalties cause some shrinkage until some health buildings can be emplaced to counter it..which is usually as simply as a single Grocer or even just an Aqueduct. I've found the blow is really softened if you are already accessing State Property (workshops are terrible outside SP in large cities, you can't sustain many of them) and especially if you went Biology first. Don't know if you're supposed to just ignore the unhealth cause the +75% hammer boost makes the cities put out that much more raw gold/beakers than is lost through pop or what

 

[Fish Man]

Don't agree with Three Gorges being good at all, especially in that stage of the game. But to each his own. I don't like most wonders that aren't named Kremlin or The Pyramids. Great Lib and GLH occasionally make situational cases better. I view wonders as distractions or fail-gold sinks.

The issue is going to Plastics; all modern warfare can be solved with Tanks in numbers Spy revolts, Artillery, or Nukes if you have to resort to that. Not that it's hard to get there or anything, but you only ever "need" to go Plastics if going for Space, which admittedly I really suck at, I've never had a good Space Race and don't really understand how to.

It's super expensive and can't be sped up, only buildable in specific terrain (river). Saving the hammers for all the coal plants for those cities isn't as easy as adding up all the costs of those hammers across all cities...some are too hammer weak to bother with factories, some focus on specialists or cottages depending on the spot.

Arguing lots of cities = lots of benefit from a wonder that offers an indirect boon is frankly the same sort of fallacy associated with Statue of Liberty, which is also not very practical in "normal" games; I imagine it's amazing for score games or anything where you are massively dominant already. you have to do a lot of accommodating of SoL's boon (+1 specialist, so like Rep at least and maybe Mercantilism) to really make it worth it, it's also very expensive and you don't need the tech, in this case, ever.

The unhealthiness is honestly not much issue when you have your terrain carpeted with cities. 2 health is roughly a pop saved and by the point cities go for Factories they will growing up to their soft caps or already be there from working food + commerce while building Wealth up to that point. Especially if you go Biology before Assembly Line. I was shocked how different it is to get Assembly line with and without Biology first.

Take what I say with a grain of salt, I don't really grasp the late game very well at all and please correct me if I'm just flat wrong or something. My way to solve late game issues is chucking tanks at them. There's so much to this game and it has so many various stages. And I know you have defeated Deity before while I have yet to even try it seriously.



True enough. but that's what running 0 slider is for: getting the factories in place. Maybe I don't understand the point of delaying until Plastics to power factories, but such a thing would lower your economic output, no? +50% hammers per city in hammer economy is very significant when building Wealth/Research.

I always find there is a downturn immediately after Assembly Line, yes. At the point where factories+coal come online, the health penalties cause some shrinkage until some health buildings can be emplaced to counter it..which is usually as simply as a single Grocer or even just an Aqueduct. I've found the blow is really softened if you are already accessing State Property (workshops are terrible outside SP in large cities, you can't sustain many of them) and especially if you went Biology first. Don't know if you're supposed to just ignore the unhealth cause the +75% hammer boost makes the cities put out that much more raw gold/beakers than is lost through pop or what

That must be where we differ, then. I prefer space victories, and TGD is a huge boon in those. But in domination and conquest games I don't build it as well.

 

[ArchGhost]

Yeah, I can understand your point. I just don't have enough experience with Space Races (i have won *1* Space Race on immortal) or late game micromanagement, and even in games where i set out to do so I'd have a much easier time just killing my way to the finish line.

 

[Fish Man]

Yeah, I can understand your point. I just don't have enough experience with Space Races (i have won *1* Space Race on immortal) or late game micromanagement, and even in games where i set out to do so I'd have a much easier time just killing my way to the finish line.

Space races will almost always have lower score and will need more time than dom; that's just the nature of the victories. So that's understandable.

Also, your comment about the 0% slider - if you're on a nice landmass and get TGD relatively early, you won't need to run anything below 100% science after SP.

 

[Fish Man]

Yeah, I can understand your point. I just don't have enough experience with Space Races (i have won *1* Space Race on immortal) or late game micromanagement, and even in games where i set out to do so I'd have a much easier time just killing my way to the finish line.

I'd also like to comment on the "workshops are useless outside of SP". They are in fact very useful in corps games, where the massive food from sushi/cereal allows you to work all workshops in your BFC and still have space for like 4 specialists. In fact, though SP is the clear winner on normal speed, corps are downright broken on marathon, since you have much more time to spread, build execs, and hook up resources. My fastest space win was on noble, with mining and cereal - spaceship landed 845 AD, which blows anything I could achieve with SP right out of the water. At the end of the game I was 2-turning fusion (on marathon!) and raking in 10K BPT, making 40+ base hammers and 15 food in almost every city from corps alone. Though corps require a bit more finesse to handle (building banks, courthouses, etc. and trying not to go broke), as @WastinTime can attest in his BC launch, properly used they are far more powerful than SP on marathon, and workshops still make up about 1/2 of your base production near the end.