How often do you tech Archery to deal with deity Barbs?

[drewisfat]

 

[antimony]

I think stuff like holkans/dogs are only a little helpful. I think chariots are bad because they're weak to the key danger unit, a spear, and they don't get def bonuses.

Is there a reason why barbarians would use spears more than axes? I agree that chariots are underwhelming defensively but I end up using them often to intercept barbs that walk by my fortified units before they pillage, and it's nice how quickly they can be deployed forward to fogbust after the T40 barb attack.

 

[antimony]

I have yet to have an initial scout (hunting Civ) survive the initial barbs on deity despite only moving on forests, so I need to improve at that part.

 

[drewisfat]

Sure, spears spawn earlier. There's plenty of time to fogbust before axes spawn if you're trying.
Scouts shouldn't even be on forests past the opening. They're for open areas of the map (tundra/desert), to safely move forward 1 tile a turn and then just retreat if you bump into a barb. So my response to Fippy is if you're worried about an area with no cover you need to fogbust, the question is whether you should tech hunting for scouts, not archery for archers.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Who voted "0%"? I feel like it has to be the right decision for more than 1% of the time?

 

[soundjata]

Who voted "0%"? I feel like it has to be the right decision for more than 1% of the time?

We had to get a demonstration first

 

[drewisfat]

CPK and I voted 0% and a lurker (my guess is Lymond). You're free to post a med seas fractal map that you think justifies archery and I'll give it multiple plays to try to prove my point. Can even compare me vs CPK because it looks like we rely on different techniques. That map Sampsa posted is a bad example because there's an obvious block possible making barbs easy to deal with (though winning that game is a whole different animal)

 

[Fippy]

and I'll give it multiple plays to try to prove my point.

But that's my whole point..you dun need archery if you give yourself multiple tries
Why go for safety if nothing is at risk.
( i like warrior & scout fogbusting much more)

 

[drewisfat]

Not asking for multiple tries to get it right, but to show consistency with varying RNG. Of course 10 novel maps is better than 1 map 10 times, but I don't think someone's gonna bother picking 10 maps.

 

[sampsa]

That map Sampsa posted is a bad example because there's an obvious block possible making barbs easy to deal with (though winning that game is a whole different animal)

Yes, sorry didn't have the time or patience to go through every map on that thread. Just saw that Lain got some trouble with that map - probably just got unlucky.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

That map Sampsa posted is a bad example because there's an obvious block possible making barbs easy to deal with (though winning that game is a whole different animal)

heh heh heh

You're free to post a med seas fractal map that you think justifies archery and I'll give it multiple plays to try to prove my point. Can even compare me vs CPK because it looks like we rely on different techniques.

I accept as well

 

[Fippy]

Okay Drew, happy new year

 

[drewisfat]

Happy new year Fippy

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Not asking for multiple tries to get it right, but to show consistency with varying RNG. Of course 10 novel maps is better than 1 map 10 times, but I don't think someone's gonna bother picking 10 maps.

You just generate 10 maps and save as worldbuilder file, right? Why is that difficult?

Edit: files removed for follow-up.

 

[drewisfat]

Well we want bad barb situation maps on those settings (isolated would suffice). I could ofc roll random maps too, but I wouldn't convince anyone of anything if most of the maps were easy.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Here's one that I posted in the general forum:

[BTS] - Please help me change worldbuilder file difficulty from deity to immortal

Would someone please kindly reduce the difficulty of the attached worldbuilder save from "deity" to "immortal" for me? I know how to increase difficulty but I cannot decrease it. The games don't work properly. I am not looking for strategic advice. I only played for six (6) turns. I don't...

forums.civfanatics.com

You can load the deity difficulty version. Don't try to win the map, it's stupid. Anyone can survive but the argument is that, without archery, you are ultimately left with a more developed state after N turns. This is the debate.

* * * * *

I am not sure how to answer the question because I am having difficulty in defining the question. Perhaps your question is, "How often do you research archery in isolation maps under the given game settings?" Logically, isolation is the only type of map where researching archery "purely" against barbarians is possible. With at least one neighbour, the question itself as originally stated, is invalid.

The Great Wall is a more extreme example. It completely denies land-based barbarians but the spy points are an important secondary function. If I believe that I am in isolation, then I have "0%" chance of building that wonder, no matter how bad the barbarian situation is.

 

[Nick723]

For another example, how would you ‘never archery’ crew handle Henrik’s recent Justinian game?

It seems to me that this would be somewhat of a nightmare without archery.

 

[drewisfat]

Without archers.
He didn't post the map yet, so I'm not sure how to elaborate on the answer. Warriors and scouts. You're looking at this game as proof of archers being necessary. I'm looking at this game as proof of archers being pointless. Slower more expensive fogbusters leading to worse barb spawns. I'd rather fight an average of <1 spear with warriors than ~2 with archers.

 

[Nick723]

Without archers.
He didn't post the map yet, so I'm not sure how to elaborate on the answer. Warriors and scouts. You're looking at this game as proof of archers being necessary. I'm looking at this game as proof of archers being pointless. Slower more expensive fogbusters leading to worse barb spawns. I'd rather fight an average of <1 spear with warriors than ~2 with archers.

I’d like to see it in action!

Specifically, how do you deal with areas like the floodplains area to the north east? If your fog buster gets approached - what then?

 

[sampsa]

@Henrik75 let's make it happen! I honestly think seeing this would improve my understanding of the early (deity) game tremendously.