How powerful will Venice be?

[VainApocalypse]

I am by no means a warmounger, and know well diplomacy, but Dandy of Venice doesn't. They said specifically in the "making of bnw" article that he will be an arse, a bull headed brute, and a warmounger, bad news if you've only got one true city to use.

They said he should look evil, not that he should be an ass, a brute or a warmonger. You're just making things up. The actual XML files dug out from the preload suggest that he's actually pretty mellow.

Ah, that is new information to me. Still, "city connections" as they are now refered likely will shift the balance closer to even.

Venice can have as many city connections as anyone else.

 

[Goldkoron]

Venice is definitely not weak at all in the beginning, Venice can puppet 2 city states within 30 turns, and achieve another not too long after.

 

[Tsar NicholasII]

I must have missed that bit where Venice can't build or buy Destroyers, could you give me a link to that?

I must have missed that bit where people always have to respond with such hostility on the forums, could you give me a link to that?

 

[Talcove]

In human hands it should be quite powerful. In the codes of the AI, however, I doubt it will be too strong. Then again, most civs, even ones that are considered 'Top-Tier' fail in the codes of the AI.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

They said he should look evil, not that he should be an ass, a brute or a warmonger. You're just making things up. The actual XML files dug out from the preload suggest that he's actually pretty mellow.



Venice can have as many city connections as anyone else.

You are absolutely correct. I sincerely and wholeheartedly appoligize. They say the venetians would make good villains, they say Dandalo is evil and they wanted him to look the part, and that he was a master manipulator, but never did they state what I said, and I do appoligize for my terrible cross refrencing.
I will defend the connections comment however. Though they CAN have as many connections as anyone else they almost certainly won't. The cities will be much farther from your capitol than normal, as they are set up for the convenice of the Ai, not you, making the roads highly infeasable. As well, without proper city site selection it will be rather difficult to defend the roads too and fro, as it will likely cross far more open country.

 

[apocalypse105]

Time will tell

 

[Martinus]

Me losing one of my 7 routes in one of my 5 cities will hurt much less than venice losing one of it's only 14

You do realize that you will have 7 routes IN TOTAL in the entire empire, and not 7 routes PER CITY right?

 

[Princeofnigeria]

You do realize that you will have 7 routes IN TOTAL in the entire empire, and not 7 routes PER CITY right?

Not to be rude, but go back a page, read comment #15 by "Princeofnigeria" and ask that again if you are still confused.

 

[VainApocalypse]

I will defend the connections comment however. Though they CAN have as many connections as anyone else they almost certainly won't. The cities will be much farther from your capitol than normal, as they are set up for the convenice of the Ai, not you, making the roads highly infeasable. As well, without proper city site selection it will be rather difficult to defend the roads too and fro, as it will likely cross far more open country.

You're right about roads being infeasible. Harbors, on the other hand, are not influenced by distance and don't need to be defended. If a Venetian player puppeted and conquered primarily coastal cities, their city connections may turn out to be worth more than typical road connections. Carthage knows well of this.

 

[Martinus]

Not to be rude, but go back a page, read comment #15 by "Princeofnigeria" and ask that again if you are still confused.

You are the one being constantly extremely rude and full of yourself. I don't know if this is the usual way of talking to people in Nigeria...

 

[Princeofnigeria]

You're right about roads being infeasible. Harbors, on the other hand, are not influenced by distance and don't need to be defended. If a Venetian player puppeted and conquered primarily coastal cities, their city connections may turn out to be worth more than typical road connections. Carthage knows well of this.

Harbors do need to be defended however, lest they be cut off, and the problem with venice is that you only need to cut off one city (Venice) to cut off the empire as a whole from internal trade, hence my hesitation towards venice as a naval power. England, Netherlands, Byzantium, the Ottomans, Carthage, Polynesia, Denmark, and to a lesser extent Songhai will pose a moneumental threat to the Venitians, making them a side easy to counter.

 

[Talcove]

Unless I'm mistaken, you can send trade routes from cities that are puppets.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Unless I'm mistaken, you can send trade routes from cities that are puppets.

You can as far as I know. I was refering to city connections.

 

[VainApocalypse]

the problem with venice is that you only need to cut off one city (Venice) to cut off the empire as a whole from trade,

That goes for every civ's city connections.

 

[Exterminas]

I think it will largely depend on what kind of terrain we are talking about.
The point that Venice will have to defend all those trade-routes is a fair one.

This task can be really easy on some map types: Highlands for example, where you are almost guaranteed to have those trade routes run through defensible choke-points. If you are playing archipelago or tiny islands for example, it can turn out to be a lot harder, since navel defense is and has been pretty hard to pull off in the early game. And all it needs to wreck your precious trade routes is a single stray barbarian galley, that slipped through.

Overall I think Venice will turn out not as spectacular as people imagine it. I played plenty of warmonger games, that were effectively one-city-challenges. Usually I built that second city just to get a specific resource or block some area. The rest of my empire ended up a puppets. But I admit that was some time ago and I don't know how practical that kind of approach is in current civ.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

That goes for every civ.

Yes, but I may have multiple cities with harbors (thus multiple to keep colonies gold coming) that link to my capitol meaning I can afford to have one or two blockaded and still get trade money. Even if my capitol is landlocked I can link my overseas colonies to it with ease, whereas venice shall have but one naval link to it's capitol, and that is the capitol itself.

 

[theadder]

Yes, but I may have multiple cities with harbors (thus multiple to keep colonies gold coming) that link to my capitol meaning I can afford to have one or two blockaded and still get trade money. Even if my capitol is landlocked I can link my overseas colonies to it with ease, whereas venice shall have but one naval link to it's capitol, and that is the capitol itself.

This isn't true, because the player can purchase items in cities. A harbour can be added to a coastal city that is a puppet as Venice.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

This isn't true, because the player can purchase items in cities. A harbour can be added to a coastal city that is a puppet as Venice.

Never the less that city must be connected via road to Venice for it to reroute all of that stuff back to the capitol, and as I've stated earlier land routes with Venice will likely be unfeasible.

 

[Talcove]

Never the less that city must be connected via road to Venice for it to reroute all of that stuff back to the capitol, and as I've stated earlier land routes with Venice will likely be unfeasible.

Yes, and so do cities in other civs...

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Yes, and so do cities in other civs...

Those roads are not infeasible however, as they will more than likely be closer, will go through less open country, and the city itself will oft be further from the enemy. Not so with Venice, as the city will be stolen from the place THEY wanted the city, not were YOU wanted it.