How to achieve 1.5k science before turn 175?

[JesioterOfficial]

Hi! I won few times science victory (Immortal and Deity), but my best result was around 290 turns, so I've read through the thread with top 10 fastest SVs. I noticed that most of them won before t200 and had around 1.5k-2.5k science per turn with 11-12 cities. I usually manage to reach around 500-800 per turn.
I always have:
- Pingala in my largest city
- good adjecency campuses with research labs in every city
- suzerian in at least 2 scientific city-states
- double adjecency for campuses card
- +50% for 10+ population, +50% 3+ adjecency card

I usually DON'T have:
- good culture
- high level alliances
- much of diplomatic points

Please, help guys. I have no idea how to triple my science!

 

[drty]

I'm definitely an amatuer compared to most people in here... but you should absolutely be going for culture as well - some of the latter policy cards are insane. Right now I'm using religion to boost my culture (Choral Music).

- International space agency 5% Science per City-State you are the Suzerain of.
- Mansticism - +75% Science in cities with a Holy Site. BUT: -25%Culture in all cities. (this is a dark age card)

Also if you can settle a city with 5 snow tiles the Armunden Scott Research station wonder also gives a 20% science boost in all cities.
I don't worry about diplomatic points; usually selling them to AI.

I find alliances pretty good, if you have a close one whos sending you routes you can get a lot of science from them using policy cards to boost further.

I also don't think you're winning a SV in under 200 turns without re rolling your map for about a week. Not saying it's impossible, just really hard. I got one in 227 last week and am trying to go under 200 on a rerun right now, will let you know how it goes (and what T175 science is). And yes I rolled the map like crazy.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Note: This is just how I play, I don't claim this is optimal or will give you sub t200 SVs on every map, but I've had very good results playing like this.

How many cities are you usually on, and how early do you get them out? I almost always shoot for 15-20 cities, leaning more towards 20 lately. Do you build armies? Violent SV can, imho, be even faster than peaceful. I usually build a 6+ unit army very early on and then mostly stop producing military, upgrade my army through the ages and take anywhere between 1 and 10 cities per game. Also, you will get many Eurekah simply by doing warfare/building units/having units to upgrade that you otherwise wouldn't get. Many important ones, too. If not for taking cities then war is still worth it for the pillage economy and peace deals. Trade routes can often get you science (and gold, which translates into science), so even cities that aren't good in terms of tile output become valuable, because traders give lots of gold and later centralized production for the space race. How many GS (Great Scientist etc.) do you usually get? How many GW, GA, GM, GI, etc.? I feel like people often focus too much on pure science output, neglecting the fact that culture is incredibly important for a science victory. Getting a new government is one of the single best snowballing tools in Civ. Fast Classical Republic - Merchant Republic - Democracy is a must. Are you building district triangles (or diamond, or any kind of shape that you plan out)? This is one I forget too often myself which usually costs me an insane amount of yields.

When your bottleneck is science, you can easily circumvent that by founding a few more cities than you usually do, that is by far the easiest way to increase science. I honestly don't even get Research Labs in every city and still often manage more than 1000 science per turn. I would also argue that more than 1000SPT is not really needed anyway, unless you're bad at Eurekah management. Often times I can make up for a lack of insane SPT by pillaging Campuses, saving "bulb" scientist (give X science per Natural Wonder, for ex.) and by starting district projects early on, thinking ahead. Really, district projects might be the most important of all the micromanagement for SV.

 

[JesioterOfficial]

Thank you very much guys for your detailed replies!
To answer your questions @yung.carl.jung :
1. I usually get almost all of the GS - especially +1 per library, +2 per university, +500 per NW (normally I look for ones that occupy 3-4 tiles), +250 per mountain tile, etc.
2. I do pretty good urban planning, particularly with IZ and campuses.
3. I almost never get more than 3 GW GA GH combined.
4. I don't have strong army, just minimum to defend my cities. Unless AI declares war on me and has some well located cities, then I start producing more units and after killing its army I capture few of its cities (this rarely happens, maybe 25% of my games)
5. I Almost always get both GS and GI that boost space race projects.
6. I usually settle between 7 and 10 cities (seeing that it's half of yours, together with almost no culture it can be main problem)
7. I mainly do internal trade routes, to boost growth and production.

 

[Victoria]

I have no idea how to triple my science!

You don’t have to. People bump up to 2500 with Amundsen when they did not need it. 850 is just fine to get to ISS. ISS as already mentioned is 5% per Suze. No one has mentioned a Kilwa (May have missed) which to me is a real game changer but the biggest path to sub victory is more eurekas and inspirations. 1500 is just fine. I have played a lot of Kupe Terra deity lately and it’s a specialised map that sort of guarantees sub 200 peaceful once you get the hang of it. It’s a great way to practice the fundamentals but quite different to other games.
... and for goodness sake get decent culture, be it Rapa Nui or kumasi or Nan Madol.

I also don't think you're winning a SV in under 200 turns without re rolling your map for about a week

On deity that would be true, on emperor that would be false and on prince it becomes a bit more tricky again because the civs just do not have the cash to help you. Emperor it is easy enough to roll everyone and the pillaging makes it OP.

 

[drty]

Ah my bad didn't even consider difficulty. I'm still trying and retrying a map I know well and am having real trouble going sub 200 peacefully, maybe I need to try and be more aggressive! Out of interest what would make it more doable on Emporor than Deity? I usually play Deity because I often found the AI goes broke too fast on other difficulties.

-Edit Forgot about Kilwa!

I'd also note OP that when you see mad SPT on screengrabs it's usually when running tonnes of district projects as opposed to 'organic' yields.

 

[Victoria]

Out of interest what would make it more doable on Emporor than Deity?

Y, only because it is easier and faster to steamroller

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Thank you very much guys for your detailed replies!
To answer your questions @yung.carl.jung :
1. I usually get almost all of the GS - especially +1 per library, +2 per university, +500 per NW (normally I look for ones that occupy 3-4 tiles), +250 per mountain tile, etc.
2. I do pretty good urban planning, particularly with IZ and campuses.
3. I almost never get more than 3 GW GA GH combined.
4. I don't have strong army, just minimum to defend my cities. Unless AI declares war on me and has some well located cities, then I start producing more units and after killing its army I capture few of its cities (this rarely happens, maybe 25% of my games)
5. I Almost always get both GS and GI that boost space race projects.
6. I usually settle between 7 and 10 cities (seeing that it's half of yours, together with almost no culture it can be main problem)
7. I mainly do internal trade routes, to boost growth and production.

Two things that strike me here:

It seems that you focus entirely on science (which is good in theory), but are slacking in culture per turn (which is very bad, culture is, even if it sounds weird at first, instrumental for a fast SV!). consider building a few more cultural sites, they really add up, especially with the great people. I usually don't bother with all the buildings, the main idea is to get GW and GA point early so that they are working for you throughout the game. A single GW / GA is a pretty monumental boost to your culture per turn early on.

You said you do internal trade routes for growth and hammers. Again, I'm not sure if my playstyle is most efficient, but personally I much prefer doing external trade routes for GPT and strong rushbuy potential. Buying buildings/units for Eurekahs is one of the best ways to accelerate tech progression. I usually switch from external to internal TR shortly before starting Space Race production. At that point all my TRs are going into the cities that are building Space Ports and are used for maximum hammers.

You don’t have to. People bump up to 2500 with Amundsen when they did not need it.

Victoria is, as per usual, entirely spot on here. I have seen so many screenshots of people with 2000+, 3000+, or more science per turn having awful win times. Ironically enough the often finish the tech tree slower than I do with 600+ science, mainly because science is more effective the earlier you get it in the game, just like culture, and because they miss Eurekahs. Having your science peak at turn 200 is just not very relevant, even though 2000+ spt looks good on paper.

Also, science per turn is not always the bottleneck. When you've researched all techs, your science is almost useless, and centralized production is now the bottleneck. From my experience, anywhere between 700 and 1000 science is good enough to finish the tech tree, depending on how good you are with Eurekahs, bulbs and city projects.

From my experience it's the same kind of people that have 10,000+ gold sitting in their bank because "there's nothing good to buy". Even some YouTubers that do strategy and tips videos do this, and it honestly makes my blood boil. I totally get and respect that not everyone wants to play optimally, but just spreading bs out of laziness like "there's nothing to buy" makes me scream at my monitor

 

[Bangau]

Ah yes, the fast Science Victory! I've been trying this one recently and just the other week managed to do a turn 192 deity SV with Korea. In the Hall of Fame and GOTM forums you can find people better at this game than me explain how they get even sub turn 180 SV, but you may have already looked there? What I have learned so far:

- Conquest makes it easier: conquer a lot of cities from your opponents and put them to use for yourself.
- Go heavy on science, but keep up with culture as well. Some things that really boost your science game are unlocked by the right civics.
- Use % boosts to your science and culture: Kilwa is the best one, but some civs get them from other things (e.g. Korea and Scotland). There are some key policy cards as well, and if you are lucky some City States give great boosts to science and culture.
- A fast SV is a lot about timing: e.g. getting the culture boost from the second space project that gets you towards the +5% science per suzerainty policy card. You really need to plan ahead and get the right boosts at the right time if you want to go <200 turns.
- Tricks (I mostly learned from others on here) really help speed up everything: dedicate one or two cities that have a lot of harvestable resources and don't chop anything until you are ready to run space projects --> save up a lot of '1 charge' builders, run the spaceproject and Magnus chop in one or two projects | buy spaceports instead of producing them using Reyna or Moksha | create one 'super production' city with the rurh valley and ALL your traders (I have done space projects in 2 turns in cities like that, often my capital)

There's a lot more to it, that you can read about in many other threads on this forum. That's how I finally managed it: learn from others and keep trying.

 

[Victoria]

that gets you towards the +5% science per suzerainty policy card

Tip... work out how short you will be on your moon launch and can you make that up chopping in science projects/using specialists. For example a science chop of 100 gives only 15 science but on the moon landing give 150 culture too.
A specialist slotted for 1 turn gives 2 science but +20 culture on the moon landing turn.... and if you have a lab this can stack up nicely.

if you are 2000 culture short wait a few turns and find additional chop if poss.
Building/buying 3 airports not only helps hugely but airports give great production.

if you are 5000 culture short, you are crap at planning... unbalanced.

 

[The Highwayman]

I've been working on reducing my science victory to sub 200 recently, but unsuccessfully. I've come close, 204 w/ Japan (completely mismanaged Moksha promotions and had to wait to buy spaceports), several 210s. I can have enough science to 1-2 turn future techs, but I believe my issue is in the small details mid game that have a big impact on late game efficiency.

Questions for all regarding a peaceful sub 200 science:

• Obviously with most maps, your later expands are likely not going to be that good. Do you settle them anyway just to get a campus and all the buildings to run science projects, producing nothing else?
• Do you build 4 ent complexes for the inspiration (I often do), do you build 3 aerodromes with 3 airports (I usually build 2, one on a foreign continent for the eureka/inspiration but don't build the buildings)
• Do you have encampments with Military Academies in a couple of high production spaceport cities and utilize the military card that boosts science project production late game?
• How many trade routes do you have? One capacity per city is a nice philosophy, but not always realistic in my experience (for sub 200 science) unless playing a civ with a unique harbor. Since Magnus can't be everywhere, and quite frankly standard maps don't always have mucho chops regardless, some of the campuses and buildings can take up much of the late bloomers' production time.
• Do you build an early wonder? What if the Pyramids go quick and/or there's no where for you to build them? I really like the Oracle/Pingala combo to help with the GP generation early on.
• It seems having certain city states in the game is crucial. Anatananarivo is amazing, Nan Madol, Geneva, Babylon, a few others. As you all know, sometimes the city state spread is total garbo. Are they as impactful as I believe?
• Do you prioritize faith generation to rock and roll during monumentality GAs? If so, how do you get it? Build a few early holy sites? Religious alliances and trade routes? Earth Goddess (not always good depending on map)? Do you ignore faith almost completely and expand/produce builders another way?
• Do you play on "wet" maps to get more chops? The 2/-3 untouched cities to chop projects is a great strategy, but AI expansion or bad map seed may prevent this to an extent. Unless you chop nothing in your early cities, but that seems out of the question because getting them online ASAP snowballs you like crazy.

Just a few thoughts. I would love to hear what people think or any out of the box ideas.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

• Do you build 4 ent complexes for the inspiration (I often do), do you build 3 aerodromes with 3 airports (I usually build 2, one on a foreign continent for the eureka/inspiration but don't build the buildings)
• Do you have encampments with Military Academies in a couple of high production spaceport cities and utilize the military card that boosts science project production late game?

I think both of those are not worth it at all, and I only use the bonus for military academies or for whatever the harbor equivalent is in those very rare cases where I would have built that district anyway

• How many trade routes do you have? One capacity per city is a nice philosophy, but not always realistic in my experience (for sub 200 science) unless playing a civ with a unique harbor. Since Magnus can't be everywhere, and quite frankly standard maps don't always have mucho chops regardless, some of the campuses and buildings can take up much of the late bloomers' production time.
• Do you build an early wonder? What if the Pyramids go quick and/or there's no where for you to build them? I really like the Oracle/Pingala combo to help with the GP generation early on.
• It seems having certain city states in the game is crucial. Anatananarivo is amazing, Nan Madol, Geneva, Babylon, a few others. As you all know, sometimes the city state spread is total garbo. Are they as impactful as I believe?
• Do you prioritize faith generation to rock and roll during monumentality GAs? If so, how do you get it? Build a few early holy sites? Religious alliances and trade routes? Earth Goddess (not always good depending on map)? Do you ignore faith almost completely and expand/produce builders another way?
• Do you play on "wet" maps to get more chops? The 2/-3 untouched cities to chop projects is a great strategy, but AI expansion or bad map seed may prevent this to an extent. Unless you chop nothing in your early cities, but that seems out of the question because getting them online ASAP snowballs you like crazy.

Just a few thoughts. I would love to hear what people think or any out of the box ideas.

as many TRs as possible. every inconsequential city's job is to build a TR over anything else. most of my satelite cities aren't good enough for projects anyway.

I do build Pyramids and Oracle and Halikarnassos every time I can. Aside from that, maybe Oxford or Ruhr Valley. Potala Palace, Big Ben, Casa de Contraccion and Forbidden cities I build only under specific circumstances.

Great Zimbabe, Jebel Barkal and Angkor Wat are kinda underrated imo. I once built a 4 turn Jebel Barkal for a total of +20 faith or something absurb. Have often gotten +15 total population from Angkor, though that wonder is far less useful the later you get it, even though the population is technically "worth more".

Essentially I like all the wonders that give you somewhat of a "global" bonus and dislike the ones that are very local, like Petra.

CS are very impactful, Hong Kong for example is a complete game changer.

I necer focus on faith and see it mainly as a ressource to buy monumentality workers with (thanks @Victoria !), sometimes trade routes, and in the late game GP.

Not sure if playing on wet maps is actually faster, you have to consider so many factors, All of your units being hampered in movement being the biggest one.

 

[The Highwayman]

@yung.carl.jung Thank you for the response. I need to reconsider mid game wonders, as I almost always beeline Forbidden City. But if I expend 6-7 chops in that city, could I have saved those for spaceport project chops?

I need to consider Jebel More...~20 faith per turn + additional Theater Square adjacency opportunity seems good, and one can forego holy sites. Without a faith pantheon or a specific Civ's intrinsic faith gen, solid faith gen for Monumentality can be received from Jebel, Religious alliance/Trade routes, Mausoleum City with high pop, Triangular Trade card. Jebel instead of a crappy Petra seems logical.

Ruhr is a solid choice in a city that's a production monster...stack high production for those expensive space projects. You can't build a spaceport or build the projects until they become available. Once available, you obviously need to complete them ASAP and you can't realistically chop everything at the end of the game in every city. I do like Oxford and also Bolshoi but it's such a mixed bag: I'll one turn all the lower level civics but I'm never going after Capitolism or Totalitarianism for example and you may get awarded those. But it can hit big too if you get Rapid Deployment and Cold War for example.

I do think an encampment is valuable in a science game. Eureka for Gunpowder and siege tactics, era score for Military academy, and production boost for space projects. Some housing to get a large production city a little larger. It all depends on the opportunity cost and workable tiles I feel.

How many settlers do you produce before Gov Plaza/Ancestral Hall? Do you use Ancestral Hall? The free 5 charge builders upon founding a city are so nice, but it can be a little slow to get said settlers out since AH is so expensive.

 

[Bangau]

How many settlers do you produce before Gov Plaza/Ancestral Hall? Do you use Ancestral Hall? The free 5 charge builders upon founding a city are so nice, but it can be a little slow to get said settlers out since AH is so expensive.

If you play for a 'warmongering' SV, the boost to production after capturing a city is way better I think.

In reply to your earlier questions:

• Obviously with most maps, your later expands are likely not going to be that good. Do you settle them anyway just to get a campus and all the buildings to run science projects, producing nothing else?

After turn 100 or so only settle cities if they are really worth it, e.g. with lots of choppable resources so they will be useful in 10 or 20 turns. If you have to hard build, before they get useful you're playing end game.

• Do you build 4 ent complexes for the inspiration (I often do), do you build 3 aerodromes with 3 airports (I usually build 2, one on a foreign continent for the eureka/inspiration but don't build the buildings)

4 EC almost never, but you might capture them if you warmonger. 3 aerodromes if I have 3 great production cities. They add some extra production to them so they are not a waste of time.

• Do you have encampments with Military Academies in a couple of high production spaceport cities and utilize the military card that boosts science project production late game?

Always!

• How many trade routes do you have? One capacity per city is a nice philosophy, but not always realistic in my experience (for sub 200 science) unless playing a civ with a unique harbor. Since Magnus can't be everywhere, and quite frankly standard maps don't always have mucho chops regardless, some of the campuses and buildings can take up much of the late bloomers' production time.

As many as possible. I like to place all trade routes in my most productive city (Ruhr) and run the cards that give extra production to trade routes. I've gotten cities with over 500 production doing this.

• Do you build an early wonder? What if the Pyramids go quick and/or there's no where for you to build them? I really like the Oracle/Pingala combo to help with the GP generation early on.

If you can snatch them, go for it. Some are real helpful. Kilwa off course best of all. Recently got a 192 turns SV (first time, see HOF forum) with no Kilwa and no science city states, so I learned they are not necessary to get good times. But they're certainly helpful.

• It seems having certain city states in the game is crucial. Anatananarivo is amazing, Nan Madol, Geneva, Babylon, a few others. As you all know, sometimes the city state spread is total garbo. Are they as impactful as I believe?

See last answer. Yes, they are great and will shave off 10 turns or maybe more. But it can be done with lousy CS as well.

• Do you prioritize faith generation to rock and roll during monumentality GAs? If so, how do you get it? Build a few early holy sites? Religious alliances and trade routes? Earth Goddess (not always good depending on map)? Do you ignore faith almost completely and expand/produce builders another way?

In my first (and only so far) sub 200 I did not go for religion myself, but captured a religious neighbor (or two...). The faith to buy builders IS great. Not sure though if it's that important. I've done a lot of religious SV plays, but never got them under 200 turns. Maybe the opportunity cost for going for a religion early on is a bit to high.

• Do you play on "wet" maps to get more chops? The 2/-3 untouched cities to chop projects is a great strategy, but AI expansion or bad map seed may prevent this to an extent. Unless you chop nothing in your early cities, but that seems out of the question because getting them online ASAP snowballs you like crazy.

To make a game comparable for the Hall of Fame forum I set everything to standard. I think selecting the optimal map for your win condition and chosen civ should in most cases help you get there a little faster. For a peaceful SV a lot of chops should be better than less chops. If you war it will cost you movement speed, making it slower to capture cities to put to use for your victory.

 

[The Highwayman]

@Bangau Thanks for the response. It was a cake walk getting sub 200 on Rise and Fall w/ goddess of the harvest pantheon, and now I admit I'm a little slow to adapt. I know there's not just one way to achieve this, but I certainly appreciate you sharing your methods. Perhaps I just need to stop handcuffing myself with the peaceful strats.