How to ask for help?

[Archon_Wing]

I noticed a lot of newer players tend to post very vague situations that tend to get equally as vague advice. Or when they post screenshots they post irrelevant information, which is also happening in the description. This is a problem, because it shows they don't know how to evaluate their own game. It means they don't even know what the right question is.

Now a save is the no brainer option, but some of us aren't at home when we see this or have the Tl;DP syndrome, so I think it'd be useful for people here to list what they want to see to get a quick grasp of the game assuming maximum laziness. There's also a chance they post a 1500 AD save which usually is too late.

Diplomatic situation and tech situation is a no brainer? What's the quickest way to display these things or is it better to list, etc.

It'd be nice to get all these things in one place so it can be referred to immediately.

Please, no smartass answers. We were all beginners at once and what is blatantly obvious to you is not to someone who just picked up the game. It's not exactly the most intuitive game after all.

 

[lymond]

Not sure I'm clear on what you are stating/asking here? Your post doesn't appear to lead to a question, theory or solution.

I get your point though on the posts of newer players asking for advice. A couple of articles were put together regarding how to ask for advice, including one by VoU. I've always thought that article should be stickied in this forum.

If I"m not mistaken, you might be asking for a small list of key points that a newer player should consider when asking advice, e.g., a)include screenshot, b)game settings, c) difficulty, etc etc.. I think much of that is already covered in those articles. However, you might also be asking for a quick list of key general pointers that any new player can use. Yet I'm not sure if that is what you are asking.

 

[Teoes]

Unfortunately (one of) your first responses is not going to provide the answer you're looking for, but make an observation and a suggestion.

My guess is that the sort of newer players/posters you're referring to are also the same sort of folks who may not take the time to look for or read something like this. Is there any way this (or at least something like this) could be stickied or made more obvious and permanent? It could be of great long-term use that way.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Not sure I'm clear on what you are stating/asking here? Your post doesn't appear to lead to a question, theory or solution.

I get your point though on the posts of newer players asking for advice. A couple of articles were put together regarding how to ask for advice, including one by VoU. I've always thought that article should be stickied in this forum.

If I"m not mistaken, you might be asking for a small list of key points that a newer player should consider when asking advice, e.g., a)include screenshot, b)game settings, c) difficulty, etc etc.. I think much of that is already covered in those articles. However, you might also be asking for a quick list of key general pointers that any new player can use. Yet I'm not sure if that is what you are asking.

Your 2nd paragraph is right. I have no question because I don't need help at the moment, and honestly I don't even know what is extremely important information to give in order to give someone a quick and easy evaluation of the game. So I have to ask people that know better.

The suggestions could be more specific though, like screenshots of what in particular. The demographic screen?

Basically I would want a quick and easy format or template to use when asking questions with that can be quickly linked to. Perhaps a sticky that is titled "Before you ask for strategy advice"-- a checklist of sorts.

I don't want to enforce anything on people of course, but I think having a more standardized format of asking for help on a particular game will help some people.

I know nobody uses search/reads stickies, but hey, at least it can be quickly linked to. There's a lot of information on this site, but it's hard to put it all together.

An example:

I think Shaka is going to declare war on me, should I start building units? His power rating is spiking and my scout sees him moving troops. Shaka is my closest neighbor and I have 2 cities that share a border with him.

Settings: Continents, Noble, Normal Speed, No huts
Opponents/Diplomacy: Shaka (Cautious), Gandhi (Pleased- Hinduism), Washington (Cautious-Hinduism) I have no religion in my cities
Civics adopted: Slavery
Demographics: 1st in GNP, 4th in production, 2nd in population
Techs: I am researching currency. Nobody has alphabet and I can trade Iron Working. I am generating 65 beakers a turn at 70%
Year: 20 AD

Obviously this is better as screenshots.

Edit: Oh there's already an article how to find advice? Well, yea that has to be made more easily visible since I had to dig it up: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248918

Maybe someone needs to run around with a sig that says "Turn on resource bubbles!" in big red letters.

 

[lymond]

Edit: Oh there's already an article how to find advice? Well, yea that has to be made more easily visible since I had to dig it up: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=248918

:

So you've never seen VoU's guide for getting advice? I do agree that it should be stickied and possibly updated...not sure, I haven't looked at it in a very long time. It could be part of a larger "Read this thread before posting..." type post.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Wow you were a lot nice with your PSA than I would have been, my PSA would have been "Hey scrubs who want help, you're a dumb as truck noob stop posting a summery of your game and post some early and middle game saves."

 

[vicawoo]

I noticed a lot of newer players tend to post very vague situations that tend to get equally as vague advice. Or when they post screenshots they post irrelevant information, which is also happening in the description. This is a problem, because it shows they don't know how to evaluate their own game. It means they don't even know what the right question is.

Now a save is the no brainer option, but some of us aren't at home when we see this or have the Tl;DP syndrome, so I think it'd be useful for people here to list what they want to see to get a quick grasp of the game assuming maximum laziness. There's also a chance they post a 1500 AD save which usually is too late.

Diplomatic situation and tech situation is a no brainer? What's the quickest way to display these things or is it better to list, etc.

It'd be nice to get all these things in one place so it can be referred to immediately.

Please, no smartass answers. We were all beginners at once and what is blatantly obvious to you is not to someone who just picked up the game. It's not exactly the most intuitive game after all.

I noticed a lot of established players tend to post very vague meta-situations that tend to get equally vague advice. Or when they post they post irrelevant sentences, which is also happening in the description. This is a problem, because it shows they don't know how to evaluate advice for giving advice.

Now an example is a no brainer...

Ok I'm done parodying.

I think we forget that it's very intimidating to post on a new forum with all these obsessive "experts" who take their forum extremely seriously. It's kind of like if you join a gym for the first time, and you see a bunch of people benching 225 lbs (115 kg?), and you think, maybe I'll just stick to the machines and treadmills.

It's a strategy and tips forum. The though process of someone finding this forum is probably, hmmm, maybe I can ask for tips and ask about strategy? I'm confused about what to do in this situation, so I'm going to write how I see the situation. What? Why did people criticize my post and tell me read all these stickied threads about etiquette, how to post? You mean I have to get over this huge activation energy before i can use the forum?

Honestly if they have to do all that, maybe it would be easier not to post, which would make the forum more accessible.

If a teacher wants to have kids enjoy and get better at mathematics, they don't yell at the 10th student that had some erroneous logic/approach, they give the reasons to guide their thinking over and over again.

Rather than having a list of advice to refer to, it would probably be better to train existing forum members (since they're more committed than lurkers) to explain what they need to submit.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Maybe someone needs to run around with a sig that says "Turn on resource bubbles!" in big red letters.

Sold.

So you've never seen VoU's guide for getting advice? I do agree that it should be stickied and possibly updated...

If it needs to be updated, add your fair share of what's missing. The title is not an accident.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Wow you were a lot nice with your PSA than I would have been, my PSA would have been "Hey scrubs who want help, you're a dumb as truck noob stop posting a summery of your game and post some early and middle game saves."

I considered that first but I think it would have gotten closed.

I noticed a lot of established players tend to post very vague meta-situations that tend to get equally vague advice. Or when they post they post irrelevant sentences, which is also happening in the description. This is a problem, because it shows they don't know how to evaluate advice for giving advice.

Now an example is a no brainer...

Ok I'm done parodying.

I think we forget that it's very intimidating to post on a new forum with all these obsessive "experts" who take their forum extremely seriously. It's kind of like if you join a gym for the first time, and you see a bunch of people benching 225 lbs (115 kg?), and you think, maybe I'll just stick to the machines and treadmills.

It's a strategy and tips forum. The though process of someone finding this forum is probably, hmmm, maybe I can ask for tips and ask about strategy? I'm confused about what to do in this situation, so I'm going to write how I see the situation. What? Why did people criticize my post and tell me read all these stickied threads about etiquette, how to post? You mean I have to get over this huge activation energy before i can use the forum?

Honestly if they have to do all that, maybe it would be easier not to post, which would make the forum more accessible.

If a teacher wants to have kids enjoy and get better at mathematics, they don't yell at the 10th student that had some erroneous logic/approach, they give the reasons to guide their thinking over and over again.

Rather than having a list of advice to refer to, it would probably be better to train existing forum members (since they're more committed than lurkers) to explain what they need to submit.

Hmm, I always thought it was pretty standard for new users to read stickies and be pointed to sources. If you're not willing to put that kind of effort, why would people want to put that kind of effort to reply? If we want to do a teacher/student analogy, surely the teacher has a syllabus printed to let them know what's going on.

My point is to not throw a fit every time someone breaks some alleged rules of etiquette. I am not saying we should have threads that say "Follow these rules or die". But canned responses tend to help a lot to get one started. It's hard to answer someone's questions when they don't know what to ask about. It's like asking for help on your computer if it has trouble. "My computer isn't working" isn't gonna tell us much, but if one can report symptoms that is another case.

As for training existing forum members, I think that is even harder.

I feel my approach is suitable for both lazy people asking and answering questions.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

I agree with the posters advocating a gentler approach. The people asking for help aren't trolls, they're just newcomers who don't write about the game much. Help them or don't, but try to be nice.

I'm one of the ones who doesn't load games. I need to quit my browser to free memory for the game, plus I normally run BUFFY, so it's just a hassle. But if you post shots, I'm glad to help. Here's shots I would like:

1. Settings (victory screen, select settings) to tell me map, difficulty, etc
2. Shot of research tree, scrolled so we can see the relevant parts
3. Shot of tech trades screen
4. The "glance" diplo screen, so we can see how everyone feels about everyone else
5. Shot of cities with resource bubbles on and tile yields on. Without yields, it's hard to tell what you're doing. I'd rather several shots than one zoomed way out.
6. Your econ advisor. Probably the most important screen for finding problems.
7. If you're asking about military, a shot of the border, and of your stack.

Some of those might only be in BUG mod. I've forgotten what the advisors show without it.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I agree with the posters advocating a gentler approach. The people asking for help aren't trolls, they're just newcomers who don't write about the game much. Help them or don't, but try to be nice.

I'm one of the ones who doesn't load games. I need to quit my browser to free memory for the game, plus I normally run BUFFY, so it's just a hassle. But if you post shots, I'm glad to help. Here's shots I would like:

1. Settings (victory screen, select settings) to tell me map, difficulty, etc
2. Shot of research tree, scrolled so we can see the relevant parts
3. Shot of tech trades screen
4. The "glance" diplo screen, so we can see how everyone feels about everyone else
5. Shot of cities with resource bubbles on and tile yields on. Without yields, it's hard to tell what you're doing. I'd rather several shots than one zoomed way out.
6. Your econ advisor. Probably the most important screen for finding problems.
7. If you're asking about military, a shot of the border, and of your stack.

Some of those might only be in BUG mod. I've forgotten what the advisors show without it.

Yea, which is why I didn't take Zero's approach wantonly.

This post is perfect, btw. That's what I wanted to see, since you are someone that would rather not load a game.

 

[Um the Muse]

Some of this really could apply to some of the more experienced players, too. I've stopped looking at spoilers for certain players because I know that all I'll see is his trophy.

I mean, I'm happy that guy was able to win in 4000 BC or whatever, but just seeing a winning screenshot doesn't tell me how he did what he did.

Now, apparently there's plenty of people who just want to post trophies. Frankly, I don't get it, but that's their right. What bothers me are shadows that just show that they can rofl-stomp this map too.

With that in mind, I think it'd be nice if both parties showed screenshots and multiple saves whenever they come to some sort of crossroads--they make (or are about to make) a major decision or enter a new phase of their plans, for example.

 

[Cam_H]

Lots of good thoughts here. VoiceOfUnreason's thread is good and helpful, but I agree that it could be reformatted to be even better. There are 16 posts (as of now) in it, and most have something to say. CornPlatter made a good start at setting out "The wrong way" and "The right way" - maybe that could be redone or expanded upon as a core component of the Guide?

I'm chiming in with a couple of thoughts for opening posters;

(a.) Make it clear if you have any mods beyond BUG!

I'm not sure how many times my computer's been caught in a loop trying to open a game from someone seeking advice that has been saved with a mod that my machine doesn't recognise.​

(b.) Don't abandon your games unless told to by others responding in your thread, and try to follow the advice that you've sought in the first place!

Again, numerous times I've tried to assist people by downloading their games, analysing their predicaments, assessing alternative pathways to victory, and sometimes writing reasonably comprehensive guides as to how they might play out their games, only for them to give up without seeing the game through, or on occasion giving up and then start another brand new thread that pretty much replicates the one that they've just abandoned, but with a different leader and map. If you want help, then respect the effort that someone else has put in to trying to assist.

Furthermore, if you're going to ask for help, try to apply the points of assistance that you've asked for. If people tell you that three Workers is insufficient for your five cities at 1AD, don't then post a 700AD progression of that game with three Workers still. Typically bad advice will be picked up quickly by others in the forums, so it's uncommon for a game to be reviewed and left hanging with a single bit of bad advice as the only reply. If you're not 'sure' on the value of the advice that you've received, discuss it further in your thread so it can be clarified.​

 

[vranasm]

the best approach for new players to ask is to post in a way that will interest most people to get actually some response.

So the question doesn't have to be short otoh no one likes to read through wall of texts - balance your post, make good use of paragraphs and text formatting, if you feel that your post is too long, make TLDR section and let speak the screenshots.

You have to clearly state your settings you play on (difficulty, speed the most important) and of course any mods you use.

The pictures from empire have to be somewhat interesting... Tech trade screen is automatic choice.
SS of capital is very good and SS of land around capital and the way you settled your first few cities and of course with Bubble resources on. Turning on tile yields wouldn't hurt too (helps to identify improvements).

Don't use for your forum games some obscure settings, because first thing you will get back is "play something more standard!". Fractal is borderline, continents, pangea even archipelago are much better (the thing with archi is that the strategy tends to be a bit different from continents/pang)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

What bothers me are shadows that just show that they can rofl-stomp this map too.

OffTopic: Oh ye merciful gods, THIS ^^^^

But, I don't run the zoo. Also, participation is low enough that the shadows shouldn't be censured. So I normally keep my mouth shut.


While I agree with the general feeling that someone should bell the cat, I'd like to point out that the everyone's guide is fundamentally a failure. Depending on how you choose to measure nbcman's one liner, the article is averaging one collaborator per year.

My recommendation, if somebody wanted to own the project, would be to ditch that thread and start a new one. Steal the ideas that are still appropriate, add new ideas, and flesh out both sets with annotated screen shots of both the game and the forum.

Give it a snappy title to pull in the target audience, publish it to Strategies and Tips, then position the forum moderators (see the list to the right of "Currently Active Users") to move it above the sticky line.

 

[vranasm]

What bothers me are shadows that just show that they can rofl-stomp this map too.

well since I sometimes am guilty of this too... I think if you give savegame it's somewhat okish... you can read a lot about the game from the final save if you show some patience.

That's why I wanted to see savegames from some obs games lately to read his strategy, especially the SSE ones.

Things you can get from last savegame:

1) order of techs
2) settling city times
3) wonder dates
4) city positions

Things you won't get:
1) tile improvements order
2) number of workers at certain points
3) military size in wars
4) all diplomatic votes and overall diplomatic progress, religions including (did you use don't use)
5) civic switches

Things not sure right now if you can or can not get:
1) war declarations time
2) if you were the target of war declarations or you were the aggressor

And honestly how many shadows you ever saw that included things you can't get from savegame.... it's like playing regular forum game just shadow....

Shadows were always supposed to offer the main player different view on situation from more experienced player and always were meant to help player with tech order and city placement and that can be gotten from last savegame too...

So if you shadow... always post savegame... then I don't consider it arrogant.

 

[coanda]

If you're on Noble and asking for advice, you need to provide information so people can talk with you about city placement, worker management, and city management (what tiles to work; what specialists to use, if any; what things to build). Generally just a shot of each city, an overview of your land, and the game settings will be sufficient. Simply put, anything beyond those is not worth your time until you have mastered those basics, and mastering them will take you to Prince or Monarch naturally.

By the time players move up to Monarch, people will want to start seeing diplomacy-related stuff before giving advice... relations with neighbors, tech trades available, your military stack if war is planned.

The number one thing new players should not do is just upload a 1900-AD save with "What went wrong?" as the message. (a) Screenshots are critical, as many people cannot or will not open saves while browsing the forum; (b) you need to give more information about what you were thinking along the way and what you think is going wrong; (c) anything after 1000 AD is too late to worry about if you're playing below Emperor; the important mistakes are all made before then.

 

[Um the Muse]

well since I sometimes am guilty of this too... I think if you give savegame it's somewhat okish... you can read a lot about the game from the final save if you show some patience...

Shadows were always supposed to offer the main player different view on situation from more experienced player and always were meant to help player with tech order and city placement and that can be gotten from last savegame too...

Huh. I suppose that you can get a lot out of a savegame if you know what to look for. Maybe we should include pointers into how to "read" all that info.

Unfortunately, I haven't ever done this before. I just never realized that I could.

So, when you download somebody's save, what do you look for? I suppose you could retire and see when cities were established. That lets you get an idea of how fast to expand, I suppose.

How do you get the tech order? Even for pre-alphabet, while there aren't a lot of options there is still room for ambiguity, right? Once tech trades become possible, all bets are off.

Every person puts their cities down in different places. I would think that seeing the sites that others use is worse than worthless unless you understand why they placed their city there. This is especially important when you realize that some people don't even really care; they're just going for "good enough".

 

[vranasm]

event log offers such info...you just need to scroll and be patient (you can eventually get up to 4000BC, it loads slowly).

it's true that tech trades throw this off a lot, but the shadow's value falls off a bit after first 100 turns anyway. The point of aquiring Alphabet is usually very easily identified (like aquiring 3 techs at 1 year is pretty significant mark of "hoa hoa here happened something!").

Disagree about city placement... how you want to learn how to place cities without actually looking at a good example of placed cities? When I was learning this game I came here regularly to ask for dotmap of current situation.
and you can ask the shadower later of course.

Seems to me like you want to be in negative attitude just because someone played your map better. That's not good approach to better himself. You have to stomach the fact that some players are more experienced with civ and just watch and learn.

It's lesson I learned long ago... no matter how good you think you are, there is always someone out there who is better then you. You have to live with it, it doesn't change.

 

[vranasm]

another thing that came to mind (and that is not aimed at you Um The Muse) I crashed here in the forums over the last 2-3 years into people that played on Prince/Monarch and tried to argue about their games when they received advice from really experienced players negating and arguing almost every sentence the player offering advice gave...

that's actually not good attitude since in a lot of times the player arguing is just plainly wrong and can't stomach the fact that he is wrong.

Such people usually after few weeks abandon this forums with absolutely 0 progress towards getting where they wanted to get at first.

Another bunch of people came to forums throwing their 1500 AD saves with "look what I have done" gotten ripped apart and becoming absolutely desilusional about themself... another example of bad attitude for newer players seeking "advice". One could argue that they probably didn't seek advice in the first place.