How to defend your afriendly city state from AI attack, without diplo consequences

Except the main reason a city state declares perma-war is because a player has started killing off other city states. It's a check on your ability to take out any city state you choose (that isn't being protected by another player).

Well if the purpose is to deter people from attaking too many city states, then.
City-States getting "Protection pacts" with actual civs is likely to better defend them than going to permanent war against the offending player. (especially if they start offering Influence for Protection Pacts)
It should also prevents the aggressor from getting any influence with those city-states ever.
(essentially allow the 'permanent war' to go 'cold')

I like that it works against me there, forcing me to defend forever against a pitiful attacker. It's not so good when an ally city state of mine declares it against a powerful AI with whom I want to maintain good relations. But I don't know how much of a problem that is yet (too soon).

It would probably be better if those 2 city-states offered their services to some other power that would defend them... essentially 'declaring perma-war' should be like asking for liberation in advance.
 
Think of it as UN Peacekeeping forces: they won't initiate conflict, but they won't let you attack either. Just because you aren't at war with someone doesn't mean you can't try to hinder their efforts. If they don't like it, they can declare war.

It's possible that the AI isn't sophisticated enough to understand this, but it seems to station units on chokepoints, etc. too, so I imagine that it does understand. It would be stupid to design a 1upt game and not consider this issue.
 
Well if the purpose is to deter people from attaking too many city states, then.
City-States getting "Protection pacts" with actual civs is likely to better defend them than going to permanent war against the offending player. (especially if they start offering Influence for Protection Pacts)

I like this idea a lot. Right now you can declare to the world that you are protecting that city state, but AFAICT this has zero effect on the game. Instead, give it some teeth:

  • DoWing the city state forces the protector to DoW the attacker.
  • Protector earns +5 (or so) influence per turn up to some cap (up to Ally level? further?)
This way you can't just start the game and offer to protect every city state you meet to gain Ally status with them all. It would take some time before you gained the benefits. Perhaps allow this agreement with only a few city states per player.

I still don't fully understand the competitiveness aspect to buying influence where you outspend another player. Do they lose the Ally benefits immediately? It makes sense that only each CS can have only one Ally.
 
Another way to protect against abuse would be to make it more and more expensive to add or maintain positive relations (friendly-plus) with the remaining city-states.

Which is basically what the always-war option does after you kill your Nth city-state, but I'm not sure how that "N" is balanced.
 
I just a tried single city challenge on a diety pangea game because I understand that setup is the most challenging and I am wanting to see if Civ V can offer a challenge to an experienced civer like myself. With an easier setup, the game is fun; though it is only a matter of going through the motions of any Civ-type game and victory can be had almost certainly without any real plan or strategy. So when I try a challenge, I have to figure out how to stretch every bit of my ability to win. When I aimed for the "moon", I discovered that the moon is just a big piece of cheese.

"Oh my favorite city-state has just gone to war; time to send my workers in to defend." I don't like the smell of stinky cheese; but it is that kind of mentality that is required to win. You can say, "Well just don't do it." It is like saying I should develop rules to limit myself. I should develop my own game. Hey why do we even have rules? We could just have units with unlimited movement points; if you think that it is cheesy to explore the entire map on your first turn, "Well just don't do it."

So about this idea of having only one civ's units per tile, it doesn't really make sense in any concept of the real world. I mean, when we have stacking units, we are saying that the units are small enough and the tiles are big enough so that more units can fit on a tile. So when units can stack so long as they are not belonging to the same civ, what does that mean? Do the same civ's army and marines get into some kind of fight so that they cannot be close to each other?

It doesn't matter, the 1UPCPT isn't a solution anyway as pointed out earlier, multiple countries at war with a single country get a far superior and unfair advantage. So the discussion goes on about making a second arriving unit to become civilian and not be able to defend. Okay fine, in the real world, they are out of formation as they are passing through another troops' formation. But the civilian thingy, although a good brainstorm sugesstion, still doesn't solve any problem. If they are civilian then they cannot attack. So still they are blocked from attacking a city for example when the city is encircled by a ring of non-active units. If they are allowed to attack, then although they may be greatly weakened by the attack, the defender of the tile they likely remain in can be a full-strength unit of an ally or other nation at war; still there is far superior unfair aadvantage.

Okay so what about if the AI declares war if it thinks you are blocking. So now the exploit changes to one where my goal is to get the AI to DOW me. Signed research agreement, check. Sold 30 turns worth of all my resources for cash, check. Used that gold to bribe his allied city states to be allied to me instead, check. Formed my defensive pacts, check. Okay, now buddy I am driving you mad with blocking. Don't like it, just DoW me. C'mon, I dare you. It is just like culture bomb without using up a great artist.

Maybe units at war can exert some kind of force to push non-active units out of the way. Or maybe there can be collateral damage from nearby fighting causing loss of some hit points making you to want to move. Maybe the pushing can cause some collateral damage too. Anyway, I'm sure those soldiers in real life are not going to be detered from reaching a city because of some wimpy boys building a pasture.

Maybe this or maybe that, what I know for sure is that the 1UPT in Civ 5 has not been fully developed. So we pay developers for a game and then have to suggest to them how it might be developed. Either that or we develop our own rules about what is fair play without any way to enforce the rules other than the honor system. I really don't like heavy dependence on the honor system in multi-player gaming.
 
From my experience you can only get an AI to make peace with a CS one time, After that it is greyed out.

Peacefully Blockading A CS you have spent thousands of coin on from an AI you are at peace with is not an exploit, but a friendly reminder that you are protecting your interest. The AI does notice this, since they will pop up and give you a choice on how to react to them "accidently" attacking your ally.

Gifting Units may work, but if you are a peaceful empire builder, then you probably are not paying maintenance on units to have around just for that occasion. The units you do have probably are veterans, and those are needed to keep the peace where you need them, not for some CS even if it is an ally. Usually the AI will make peace after a few turns if it thinks there is too much effort involved. Come to think of it, if you are an empire builder and are allied with all of the CS's then you can just buy new units and gift them.

If anything is broken, it's the AI and how it handles CS in general. It seems to me that an AI will take a CS just to have the land and nothing else. They do not "exploit" the ally status. If they do ever become allies with one, and you out buy them, they do not counter ally with more money. Has an AI ever allied CS's to win a Diplomatic victory? If anything maybe an AI will attack your allied CS just so you will DoW them, and then they don't have to ruin their AI status if they DoWed you. CS's are diplomatic tools; to use them as just another city in your empire would be foolish IMO.
 
From my experience you can only get an AI to make peace with a CS one time, After that it is greyed out.

There's permanent war on the third aggression i believe - therefore it's greyed out.

If they do ever become allies with one, and you out buy them, they do not counter ally with more money.

The AI only seems to actively pursue city states at Deity level. It may be tied to the AI completing the city state tasks but it may also be tied to the obscene amounts of gold the AI makes at that level. I've been "outbid" on city states several times on Deity by the AI (most recently by Darius I in my last deity game bidding for Helsinki :) ). Even at immortal, the AI sometimes allies City states, but does not do so consistently.
 
If this was a war game and passive resistance was not allowed then I could see the tactic as an exploit.
Since this is still Civilization then the tactic is just taking a page from real examples of how to use military force without fighting(SHOCK) regardless if the AI is programmed to recognize it. The AI does not being to behave abnormally when presented with blockades.
 
If this was a war game and passive resistance was not allowed then I could see the tactic as an exploit.
Since this is still Civilization then the tactic is just taking a page from real examples of how to use military force without fighting(SHOCK) regardless if the AI is programmed to recognize it.

It's not passive resistance if the AI doesn't know that you're resisting it. Instead, the path-finding algorithm simply isn't programmed with historical knowledge to realize that it has not been able to move to its target for X turns due to civilization Y's units blocking it.

I would be happy if the AI could realize it was blocked and declare the area a free-fire zone. It would publicly declare that anyone entering the area would become a target of its military and considered to be an aggressor. You'd have to choose to suffer the damage or declare the area a free-fire zone yourself to be able to fire back. This would of course be a DoW on the CS.
 
More than once I've asked what my AI ally wanted to stop attacking my friendly city state. They said they would take the deal as it was, i.e. offer peace for nothing. Great!

Next turn they apologised and said "I hope you don't mind me attacking your city state". Erm, actually no.
Next turn they declared they were protecting the city state. Erm, thanks!
Next turn they cancel a pact of secrecy
Next turn they cancel pact of co-operation

With this sort of crazy behaviour going on, any tactics for dealing with the problem are papering over the buggy AI. I can't be bothered to deal with it until after the next patch.
 
It's not passive resistance if the AI doesn't know that you're resisting it. Instead, the path-finding algorithm simply isn't programmed with historical knowledge to realize that it has not been able to move to its target for X turns due to civilization Y's units blocking it.

I would be happy if the AI could realize it was blocked and declare the area a free-fire zone. It would publicly declare that anyone entering the area would become a target of its military and considered to be an aggressor. You'd have to choose to suffer the damage or declare the area a free-fire zone yourself to be able to fire back. This would of course be a DoW on the CS.

The path finding algorithm is not there to determine the reason there is something blocking the path.
The AI not responding the same way a human would in any given circumstance does not make those instances exploits if the AI is still functioning within its' parameters and not somehow more vulnerable.

As it stands a player deciding to hinder an AI at war with a CS is still making a decision and they have to suffer by using units that have either been built/purchased and are part of the cost of unit maintenance for something that is neither war or immediate defense of their empire.

A free war zone...more war options in civV greeeaat. Having less war in civV, is that so bad?
 
Think of it as UN Peacekeeping forces: they won't initiate conflict, but they won't let you attack either. Just because you aren't at war with someone doesn't mean you can't try to hinder their efforts. If they don't like it, they can declare war.

It's possible that the AI isn't sophisticated enough to understand this, but it seems to station units on chokepoints, etc. too, so I imagine that it does understand. It would be stupid to design a 1upt game and not consider this issue.

This is a sensible view. Just as you have decided that you like the CS but not quite enough to go to war with the AI civ on its behalf, the AI civ doesn't want the CS enough to go to war with you over it. Perhaps this could be tweaked by making this a more conscious decision on the part of the AI so that there was a chance that it would use it as a pretext for declaring war against you.
 
Top Bottom