How to fix navy?

[Yanez]

1. Add a bombardment range like civ 3.

2. Make them able to destroy buildings/ population and those precious towns/improvements.

I would make a navy if i new a ship would come and destroy my towns and buildings which take forever in cities with lots towns

 

[Thorrez]

I think we should bring back the colonization "sneak by enemy frigate/fort"-penelty. In effect if you passes an ememy ship, it takes more than one movement point for each tile if there is a enemy ship with greater fire power than you. In this way it would be possible to block invation on the high sea.

Also some way to stop the delivery of resources to a city would be nice.

 

[Ebitdadada]

Make unloading land units take a turn so a suppirior navy can actually stop an enemy from landing troops:

i.e. Turn 1: Ships next to coast with land units in them, you give the unload command but your troops are still in the transports.

now its the other guy's turn, he can now attack your ships. If your ships arn't protected / you don't have naval superiority, likely your troops will drown.

Turn 2: Troops can now land

OR - better but harder to implement

A "Defensive Navy" turn phase whereby if one of your ships detects an enemy ship, air & naval units that didn't already use up their movement points can move.

 

[Thorrez]

Make unloading land units take a turn so a suppirior navy can actually stop an enemy from landing troops:

i.e. Turn 1: Ships next to coast with land units in them, you give the unload command but your troops are still in the transports.

now its the other guy's turn, he can now attack your ships. If your ships arn't protected / you don't have naval superiority, likely your troops will drown.

Turn 2: Troops can now land

I like this idea!

Even if you do not have a navy you also get the chance to defend yourself by moving on to coastal high ground yourself instead of all of a sudden have a unbeatable stack sitting on a forested hill.

 

[agray1444]

I think that some civs should have UU that are naval. If in the early game you could have a Galley with extra movement it would be a big plus.

Also, stronger navies would also help colonization efforts.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Simply including all of the units and features ( including a naval academy that would build frigates or destroyers) we had in CivIII and it's scenarios wold go long way.

 

[Dida]

It will be nice to modify the landing phase of the naval invasion to have a special ops carrier, like those amphibious assault ships of the US Marine. They will have huge capacity and carries helicopters and hovercraft which will then, in turn, ferry troops and equipment ashore. Should also be able to launch paratroopers.

 

[Thedrin]

Ball Lightning:
2: Have sea trade routes which can be attacked by ships, which your ships can defend.

Agreed on this point. I've been saying for the best part of a year that this (and other minor changes) would lead to the single biggest increase in the uses for naval units. Of course, the usefullness is dependent on how such a change is implemented. We do not yet know if the change with BtS will be affective.

Dida:
Regarding the second point, for any land empire that is sufficiently large, it can depend exclusively on domestic or land-based trading. In that case, ocean-going trade route pirating is none more than an annoyance, which was the case in CTP.

Domestic and land based trading is no where near as profitable as ocean going trade. As for the annoyance of CTP trade route pillaging - CivIV has an automated trade route system. You wouldn't be required to replace every lost trade route. They would spring back automatically.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Agreed on this point. I've been saying for the best part of a year that this (and other minor changes) would lead to the single biggest increase in the uses for naval units. Of course, the usefullness is dependent on how such a change is implemented. We do not yet know if the change with BtS will be affective.



Domestic and land based trading is no where near as profitable as ocean going trade. As for the annoyance of CTP trade route pillaging - CivIV has an automated trade route system. You wouldn't be required to replace every lost trade route. They would spring back automatically.

I wonder if they won't put merchant ships in the sealanes the same way they did in Pirates...

 

[innonimatu]

I also liked being able to bombard coastal tiles.

 

[Evie]

I'm really surprised to see this suggestion come up so much, I'd find that really stupid. Land units can't destroy water improvements, why should water units be able to destroy land improvements? It just doesn't make sense. I like the idea of naval trade routes, but I think besides that they just need to make the navies either faster and/or capable of carrying an extra unit...

How does it not make sense?

Battleships have guns (and missile cruisers, missiles) that can shoot far enough to be used to bombard inland targets (something in the order of 40 KM for the later Iowa-class ships). Read up on the late second world war, and how the USN battleships were used to destroy industrial targets (such as ironworks, etc) in Japan.

It would be perfectly historical for capital ships to be able to destroy land improvements adjacent to water (as they could in Civ 3).

From a game balance perspective, land units can capture cities and water units can't.

 

[bonafide11]

I didn't say it would be ahistorical, but it doesn't fit in with gameplay. There is currently no way you can destroy an improvement without being on a tile. If sea units can do it, I think there should be land units capable of shooting missiles to destroy improvements tiles away as well...

 

[Gaius Octavius]

bonafide11 is exactly right. Let both land and sea units bombard squares outside cities. You could do it in Civ 3, why not in 4?

 

[Thedrin]

Rusty Edge:
I wonder if they won't put merchant ships in the sealanes the same way they did in Pirates...

Visible merchants shipping being anything more than flavour is my great fear for BtS trade routes.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Loads of good suggestions here, but I think one thing which would really help make navies useful early on would be to introduce an ultra-cheap transport boat with no attack capability.

As it is, Galleys are just too damned expensive to be worthwhile in most cases; faced with a choice between 3 Axes or 2 Galleys, the latter really doesn't look very appealing. Unless you have to cross a body of water to get to your enemy, it very rarely makes any sense to use them at all (the Vikings, with their Nav1 UB are perhaps the exception).

But, if you have a much cheaper alternative (1/3 of the price?), then suddenly the opportunity to sneak in the back door looks a lot more appealing. If the new AI really is competent at warfare, then these kinds of tactics could be much more useful than at present.

The new boat could be available with Fishing, whilst Triremes could be held back until Compass, thus ensuring that the Galley still has a purpose, and giving early naval warfare more of a dynamic feel (at the moment Triremes might as well require only Sailing, given the vital importance of getting BW early).

 

[innonimatu]

I didn't say it would be ahistorical, but it doesn't fit in with gameplay. There is currently no way you can destroy an improvement without being on a tile. If sea units can do it, I think there should be land units capable of shooting missiles to destroy improvements tiles away as well...

Yes there is, you can bomb them with air units (not the roads, unfortunately).
and I would like an artillery unit capable of bombing surrounding tiles. Something that was available in earlier versions also.

 

[Rusty Edge]

Yes there is, you can bomb them with air units (not the roads, unfortunately).
and I would like an artillery unit capable of bombing surrounding tiles. Something that was available in earlier versions also.

Howitzers would frighten away a lot of fish....

 

[Mango]

I disagree. You can always kill their troops after they have landed. As it is, the AI navy can't really do any harm to you, and just imagine you put all the hammers that the AI spent building carriers and battleships into building more tanks and artilleries.

Actually if the AI used the navy effectively most players would die swift deaths.

You can build a stack of destroyers, carriers and transports and take out coastal cities in a single turn without ever being seen. It's easy and only requires Vassalage and Drydocks (so you can pump out Navigation 1 Carriers and Transports and Combat 2 Destroyers).

Build enough Destroyers to bombard a cities defenses down to 0% in one turn. This would be about 7. Build a few more for protection, but usually the AI will be scared to attack a navy this large.

Build about two Transports per coastal city you wish to take. Most of your units inside should be attackers with city raider promotions. If you can get Marines early then GREAT, but it really isn't required to have amphibious. You WILL however be attacking exclusively from the transport. You should also plan to have 2-3 defenders per city. They will never attack, but rather just leave their ship once you take each city.

Build about 4-5 Carriers and 4 Fighters per Carrier. That's anywhere from 16-20 fighters. I like this many because if you don't bring enough then you'll never build anymore Carriers because they're annoying. Once you have all of the Civ's coastal cities you'll be glad you have the fighters because they can bombard defenses inland. Anywho, when you're taking the coastal cities you will be using the fighters for air strikes. If the cities aren't well defended you'll be able to take each unit down to 50% strength in one turn.



Most people are too afraid to attack from transports because of the 50% penalty, but if you bombard defenses to 0% and use air strikes you can take out a coastal city in 1 turn without any significant losses. Any loss you take is definitely balanced by not giving the AI a chance to nail you with artillary until you've already taken the city.



In other words, a navy is worth building. If the AI actually used their navy for anything other than pillaging your work boats then more people would build them.

 

[cuchulain]

I second Bonafide's suggestion to increase carrying capacity of all ships by 1. Galley's are a waste as of right now. You need way too many ships to take even small cities. I'm actually surprised that this isn't a more common complaint. Everyone knows the naval aspect is bad, and this would be an easily imlemented fix that wouldn't unbalance the game. (It wouldn't fix the navy either, but its a start.)

 

[Dida]

Actually if the AI used the navy effectively most players would die swift deaths.

You can build a stack of destroyers, carriers and transports and take out coastal cities in a single turn without ever being seen. It's easy and only requires Vassalage and Drydocks (so you can pump out Navigation 1 Carriers and Transports and Combat 2 Destroyers).

Build enough Destroyers to bombard a cities defenses down to 0% in one turn. This would be about 7. Build a few more for protection, but usually the AI will be scared to attack a navy this large.

Build about two Transports per coastal city you wish to take. Most of your units inside should be attackers with city raider promotions. If you can get Marines early then GREAT, but it really isn't required to have amphibious. You WILL however be attacking exclusively from the transport. You should also plan to have 2-3 defenders per city. They will never attack, but rather just leave their ship once you take each city.

Build about 4-5 Carriers and 4 Fighters per Carrier. That's anywhere from 16-20 fighters. I like this many because if you don't bring enough then you'll never build anymore Carriers because they're annoying. Once you have all of the Civ's coastal cities you'll be glad you have the fighters because they can bombard defenses inland. Anywho, when you're taking the coastal cities you will be using the fighters for air strikes. If the cities aren't well defended you'll be able to take each unit down to 50% strength in one turn.



Most people are too afraid to attack from transports because of the 50% penalty, but if you bombard defenses to 0% and use air strikes you can take out a coastal city in 1 turn without any significant losses. Any loss you take is definitely balanced by not giving the AI a chance to nail you with artillary until you've already taken the city.



In other words, a navy is worth building. If the AI actually used their navy for anything other than pillaging your work boats then more people would build them.

you are exactly right and you only need about 3 times the production of the next guy and be about half an age ahead in turns of technology.